Planet Four Talk

Water On Mars

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Pete's study of boulders seems to be in danger of drowning under of ocean of liquid H2O, hence this new discussion. There's lots of interest in water on Mars and there are some interesting theories being put forward here on the discussion boards, so it seemed like a good idea.

    Those in favour of liquid water on Mars should enjoy reading this: http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/mars/news/mgs-20061206.html#.VKajJ3vLKZY

    The article tells us that it's looking at possible water flow in gullies, most of which are around 30 deg latitude. Here at P4 we are mainly in the 70-85 deg S region, so things will be different. To be clear, I'm not a fan of liquid water at the south pole, but I'm ready to be persuaded. 😉

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Hi Kith,

    I would tend to agree with your last paragraph in that I would not be expecting to see liquid water on the surface of the southern polar region. However, I would not discount water in liquid form being trapped deep under the surface or even in favourable conditions influencing what happens on the surface.

    I think you meant drowning Pete's thread with water discussions and not drowning his study of Boulders. I hope so, because the idea of water existing should not distract from that study. Yes, at the moment I could theorise that a remote connection exists but let water be proven to exist first.

    I liked the article you linked to and strangely enough, without reading the whole feature, my first thought was 'slippage' but that was nicely explained away on reading the full article.

    Good idea for a separate thread.

    Paul

    Posted

  • DZM by DZM admin

    Thanks for creating this, @Kitharode ; all water-on-Mars discussion can be directed here now!

    Posted

  • Mote by Mote

    I was wondering what other sites and blogs and journals do you guys monitor?

    thought this was a neat idea that shows promise http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/130130/srep01166/full/srep01166.html

    these guys collect article references neatly http://themeridianijournal.com

    definitely need water for this to happen http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/ast.2014.1218

    Posted

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to PaulMetcalfe's comment.

    Hi Paul. I'm glad you're happy with a new thread on water. I wasn't suggesting that water should not be mentioned in Pete's thread and if anyone has ideas/theories that relate boulders and liquid (water or otherwise) then they should feel free to post on Pete's discussion, or anywhere else for that matter. The boards are 'ours', not 'mine'. 😉

    To be honest, I've not yet given much thought to the possibility of liquid water on Mars (too much else to think about) but now that information and ideas are beginning to flow (excuse the pun) now might be a good time to explore the possibility. I'll agree with you that given the right conditions, liquid water could exist in the polar regions of Mars. So I guess the first thing we need to know is: what conditions are neccessary for water to exist in liquid form and could these conditions be found in the polar regions?

    Posted

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Mote's comment.

    Hi Mote. For myself, I don't follow any sites in particular. I tend to chat first, think next, then go searching when I need something relevant. 😉

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    The current headline image on the Hi Rise Home page is from the edge of a crater at a latitude of - 68.48, not quite polar but getting there ESP_039114_1115. The covering words at HiRise refers to the frost which remains on the south facing slopes, frost elsewhere having melted (sic). The whole area gets imaged fairly regularly under the theme of 'gulley monitoring'.

    And the point of putting this up here is for you to look at the gullies:

    enter image description here

    And getting a bit closer to the action, from an unfrosted section further down the image:

    enter image description here

    Unfrosted because I think it makes it easier to see what's going on. I have trouble seeing how these form without involving a liquid of some form and there seem to be a mix of active and inactive 'cwms' at the head of the channels. This indicates to me that whatever this is, it's an active progress. The active ones are bouldery whilst the inactive ones are smoothed out, with wind blown dust?

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    Over the festive season I've read somewhere (must start keeping notes) that we are looking at Mars at the end of a cold period. The axis of rotation has a pronounced wobble so the slant of the planet relative to the sun varies with time at the moment the slant is kinda mid range but in 50 thousand years or so the poles will point much more directly at the sun and thus everything will warm up and then liquid water on the surface may be more likely.

    Posted

  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to wassock's comment.

    not my 'scene',(though I can see boulders at the foot of the slopes!) but these look to me like 'dust', soil' slips . Can water be in enough quantity to form these gullies from the crest of a knife edge ridge? Only seems likely if liquid precipitation is falling on the crests. ( or is the Mars lighting illusion fooling me? 😃 ) ~Pete

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to wassock's comment.

    Hi,
    A very interesting picture and I can sit on the fence a bit here because I can interpret 1 possibility (there will be many others) that may fit.

    What I see is a large slippage from near the top of the crater rim with dark veins and what appears to be boulders on the slippage mainly at the lower end of the veins. From this picture I can see no channels visible on the surface (top left corner).

    Possibility 1
    Channels were being gouged out below the surface at top left until they reached the crater edge and then popped out causing the crater edge to collapse. The boulders being debris that is now regularly being pushed out of the channel exits whether it be gas or water based movement.

    If Water or Liquid involved

    So why could water be involved. Purely on speculation I would say that water could possibly be liquid or at least a slush that could flow if it is at a warm enough depth below the surface. When it gets above that depth (In this case it would be a horizontal translation), it quick freezes, forms a solid plug and gets shoved out by the pressure behind it.

    The veins could be frozen water seepage as each plug ejects under pressure and the boulders - ice plugs being regularly chucked out from original channel.

    I am not saying that water is involved or that the surface channels in the polar regions are carved by water. Just pure speculative thought on this picture.

    Paul

    Posted

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to wassock's comment.

    "...inactive 'cwms' at the head...". What's a 'cwms'?

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    Cwm or corrie, little valley at the head of where where a glacier once was. Not the right term geologically but the shape fits.

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator in response to PaulMetcalfe's comment.

    Paul et al, I should have said fluid rather than liquid, dust can flow as a fluid if you work it right. The important point here is that there are a mixture of active features, with well defined boulder fields at the head and a channel leading downslope,and older? Features where the head boulders appear to be buried and the channel infilled. Thus whatever is going on isvstill going on

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to wassock's comment.

    Hi,

    I would definitely agree that the process as seen is still going on and I also agree that dust or in general 'small particles' can flow as a fluid all of which ties in with the possibility I mentioned.

    Anyway, whatever it turns out to be, it will most likely be an on-going active event.

    Paul

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe

    Hi,

    This is purely a question and not a suggestion.

    Could the White fan deposits in some images be ejected Pure Water Ice crystals?

    Paul

    Posted

  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to PaulMetcalfe's comment.

    Interesting idea for the determined 'water' folks, but these fans then exist on the surface for 'yonks' I can't see how water can exist, having been vented onto the surface over this time scale. I'm just as likely to be shot down, but see it as a very slightly different crystal form of CO2 ice that exists after venting from pressurised gaseous' reservoirs of \CO2 formed by sublimation in the 'spring, that then slowly resumes the normal reflective character of the surface ice over time. The analyses of the surface that can be done, without the actual sample, seem to show it is CO2, with small varient composition . Hey ho, Oh for physical samples to anylise!! 😃 ~Pete

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    Or there is 'Megs' theory that the dust alters the ice surface in someway, or my idea that the dust forms a surface for frost (co2) to form on, which reflects the light different to the surroundibgs. In the same way that frost forms on grass at home will be different to the frost on the tarmac

    Posted

  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to wassock's comment.

    Just wanted to comment it's not my theory - Anya, Candy, and Michael, and others came up with this. I wasn't working on Mars then. Just giving credit where credit is due. They have a paper on it. I think some of the moderators have a copy. If anyone else is interested if you PM I could try and arrange getting a copy.

    Cheers,

    ~Meg

    Posted

  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to PaulMetcalfe's comment.

    HI Paul,

    So there is some spectroscopic data from orbit. Using CRISM on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (same orbiter that hosts the HIRISE camera) looked at the fan fields back in 2007. They detected mainly carbon dioxide if i remember correctly. A very little scant amount of water vapor, but the overwhelming amount of carbon dioxide is further evidence this is likely being driven by cabon dioxide rather than water.

    There's a nice press release graphic and write up I found here. Not a great page layout but search for 'Carbon-Dioxide Frost Settling from Seasonal Outbursts on Mars (Movie)' on the page and you should find it.

    What do you all think of the CRISM results?

    Cheers,

    ~Meg

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to mschwamb's comment.

    Hi Meg,

    I cannot possibly make a suggestion of any value but I find the CRISM results very interesting. If I was to make a suggestion it would probably be along the lines of - the amounts of water ice detected would be reasonable if a water ice 'plug' is involved. I would probably base it (without knowing the full science on this topic) on the following possibility.

    Assume a water source in liquid or slush form is being forced up to the surface. Within a certain distance from breaking the surface it quick freezes and creates a plug. That plug is then slowly forced out by the pressure behind it. Any surface CO2 gas flows might then meet it and vent out as dark CO2 gas and surface debris. The plug might then be forced out far enough to become unstable above the surface and the top part shatters. Thus, the CO2 fans will now for that event only contain small amounts of water ice and if the whole plug shatters for any reason, you would still only have a brief spurt of water ice crystals from the sudden pressure release followed by a quick freeze of the water source again. It may also be argued that if such an event could happen the 'plug' would only contain pure water ice for the first few (don't know how many) shattering's as it would possibly become contaminated at surface with debris etc. that might be called a boulder. The largest surface constituent would always be CO2.

    ANYWAY YOU NEED NOT WORRY BECAUSE I WILL NOT SUGGEST ANYTHING SO RIDICULOUS.

    Paul.

    Posted

  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to PaulMetcalfe's comment.

    Sorry Paul, I'm confused. Do I take it from your last sentence deliberately in UPPER CASE that you are 'joshing? or do you expect reasoned arguement against your previous statements??? Do Tel! 😃 ~ Pete

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator in response to wassock's comment.

    Sorry Meg, realised it wasnt yours, just the one you put forward hence 'Megs'

    Posted

  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to wassock's comment.

    Hey Wassock,

    No worries. I knew what you meant, but I wanted to clarify so everyone else knew. I'm still very much new to this field.

    Cheers,

    ~Meg

    Posted

  • DZM by DZM admin in response to p.titchin's comment.

    I was unclear about this as well, but I wasn't sure if I was the only one. Thanks for asking. 😃

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to p.titchin's comment.

    Hi Pete,

    Sorry I took so long getting back but have been a little bit engaged on other matters. Oh! and sorry you were confused.

    I was very serious about the CRISM report being very interesting and I hope to see more remote exploration information of that nature as it can only help to positively uncover the secrets you all seek.

    As for the rest of it - Yes, I wrapped a basic thought up in dry humour, simply because I cannot answer any questions to support or junk it yet. All I can say is that if anyone likes the notion, they can run with it and if they don't, then just ignore it but I will not enter a Q & A session on the net. I am a totally out-of-the-box investigator (always have been and always will be) and it has paid the bills so far. I also strongly support the in-the-box thinkers. I think it called team work. Hopefully you will understand that if I can prove something out-of-the-box then I submit it to the appropriate organisation and if not I put it out in the open (unless classified of course) to try and spark a more knowledgeable person to think about it.

    I don't mind if anyone wants to post a message rubbishing it - but no questions. Most of the time they are questions I have posed to myself and am examining.

    Anyway you will be relieved to know that at the moment I have no more out-of-the-box thoughts reference Mars - Well none to be posted yet.

    If you haven't looked at CRISM, I think you may find it interesting.

    Paul

    Posted

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    Paul " to try and spark a more knowledgeable person to think about it." part of that process requires the exchange of ideas and the subsequent development/rejection of the idea.

    If you post something and you get asked to explain how that works we can explore the idea.

    If you just post "out of the box" ideas and don't enter into a discussion about them, or attempt to indicate how the idea might work, then eventually "no-one will want to sit next to you on the bus". You seem to have a clear vision for most of what you post, but the rest of us can't always see it, so we need to ask and find out.

    If you're not willing to discuss your ideas why are you posting them?

    Posted

  • PaulMetcalfe by PaulMetcalfe in response to wassock's comment.

    Strange how I have been successful in igniting that spark and solving problems out-of-the-box for many years.

    If you read the posts I give my basic explanation of how the idea works. For a fresh view, another person should not be asking to have their mind contaminated with my workings on the subject otherwise you end up chasing your own tail. Meaningful discussions occur when several people have ascertained in their own mind that the idea is workable.

    As for your last sentence, the post that you are replying to explains that. That is probably why you keep asking for explanations because you don't read the content.

    Anyway, I did not come on these boards to keep going round in circles about ME but to examine Mars. I am not going to keep batting my head against other peoples ego's (that is what it appears to be) so I will leave the site now but wish everyone the best of luck in solving the Mars secrets.

    Goodbye from Paul

    Posted