Dark material in the Danielson Crater
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by
wassock
moderator
THIS IS A REPOST OF THE DISCUSSION FROM THE "ASK A TEAM SCIENTIST THREAD" As that thread is not really intended to host ongoing discussions, please continue with it here
by rosemarybillington in response to Portyankina's comment
From: rosemarybillington 6May 2014
Hi Planet Four team. In reference to the very dark black markings on the surface of Mars, I do realise that the present science of Mars must probably be correct that most are wind blown sediment deposits of DRY deposits. However looking at the HiRise images of many of the craters and regions in the Arabia region of Mars such as Danielson crater the jet inky black deposits look more like streams of liquid oil which could have brought to the surface by various processes. Oil is of course is of biological origin from the remains of biological life billions of years ago trapped under pressure undersea to become oil. If so, then a biological past of Mars is there in the HiRise photos for all to see. Just a thought, I could be wrong, am I wrong about this?
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wassock
moderator
by wassock MODERATOR
Rosemary, I think that most of the time the dark streaks on the surface are thought to be due the movement of the surface material revealing darker material beneath, which usually fades with time. There are some places where similar features have been suggested to be caused by liquid, but there is some debate about this. Not sure what you are actually looking at, there are a lot of features in the danielson, sometimes the darkest black on the surface is down to a deep shadow. If you could post a link or screenshot of what you are interested in (on the HiRise board) then we can have a proper look.
I dont think you are seeing puddles of crude oil on the surface, mainly because there are instruments on the satellites which would notice something like that.
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by
wassock
moderator
From: rosemarybillington 7May 2014.
Hi wassock & Planet Four team. In regards to the very dark inky jet black featues on the surface of Danielson crater that look so much like liquid oil here is link to the DLR nes archive in which one of the relevent images appear. Thank you. Rosemary.
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wassock
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by JellyMonster MODERATOR
Hi Rosemary - the link doesn't appear to be working.
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wassock
moderator
by michaelaye SCIENTIST
Just a quick comment and question:
Boulder are visible as well when there is still CO2 ice. Interestingly, at many locations boulders are co-located with the earliest appearence of fans, which leads to an obvious hypothesis that the presence of them somehow facilitates vent creation for the CO2 gas jets. We are thinking that the thermal conductivity of a 'peaking through' boulder will at least make the ice weakest around the boulder, so that any gas pressure from underneath will try to break out there. Hence the earliest fans around the boulders.
While I'm no expert in the precise content of oils (but i know there's a wide ranging definition), any oill deposits on the Martian surface bigger than several meters would easily be discovered by the high-resolution CRISM spectrometer experiment on the MRO satellite. The organic molecules that would make up those oil deposits have clear spectral lines that would be identifiable from space, if the deposit area is big enough for the CRISM resolution. CRISM resolution is around 20-30 m, but if there'd be organic molecule emission photons within that, I'm pretty sure CRISM would have detected them, they just wouldn't know where within that 30 m window the photons came from. So, no, I don't believe there's any surface oil anywhere on Mars. Another reason is that in the low pressure Martian atmosphere a lot of the hydrocarbons would just evaporate immediately (with some few residuals most likely). I also had a quick look at the 3 only images HiRISE made in Danielson crater but couldn't see anything especially dark. I think our fans are darker. ;Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
by rosemarybillington
13 May 2014 Hi Michaelaye & Planet Four Team. As regards surface oil on Mars this has to be my last attempt to get through on the subject and admit that I have shot my bolt if you can DEFINITELY prove this wrong, because I respect your team of professional scientists all vey much. What I am saying is that both the superb technology and superb professional science of the time has overlooked something that mere citizen science of the time perhaps may not have, because the latter tends to work on common sense explanations rarther than full science which is always prone to dogma. Hence, if the link to DLR in Germany does not work anymore then please try links to the (British,U.K.) 'Sky at Night' magazine September 2012 Coverdisc CD and its eots_04 file. Open the file in Windows then open the Mars Danielson crater photo in it with Paint, enlarge a couple of times , save in BMP format, which doubles the resolution, set as Desktop backgroud and select Fill or Stretch mode. Put on x2 or more reading glasses, stand back or forward a little untill all is clear and et voila the oil is practically dripping out of the computer screen. You are all accomplished scientists and I am a strugging amateur nobody, but I simply fail to understand why you cannot simply see the obvious in this case. Whatever your reply I intend to gradually switch from mostly BOINC based citizen science to Zooniverse based citizen science because my poor comupter has been doing too much of the work so far and it is time that I did most of the work at least for a while to give it a well earned rest. Enough said .Rosemary over and definitely out
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wassock
moderator
by JellyMonster MODERATOR
Rosemary - something like this?.. http://www.planete-mars.com/images-de-mars-express-sur-le-site-esa/
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wassock
moderator
by wassock MODERATOR in response to JellyMonster's comment
The top image looks more like dunes of black sand than a liquid/ooze to me
Rosemary, can you post one of your images for us to look at? You will need to save it somewhere like Dropbox and link to it your dlr link may not work because of the way this site works, it can be picky about how you code a link. Can you try posting the url as plain text rather than as a link
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wassock
moderator
by p.titchin in response to rosemarybillington's comment
Sorry Rosemary, to me it just looks like dark deposits being covered by lighter soils slipping from higher up the crater wall. Looks like some darker surface exposed by a slippage towards the top of the slope as well. The 'black' appears to have formed dunes in the crater floor. I'll wait with interest to see if you can do as Wassock asks, and post us the actual image you are describing. ~ Pete.
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wassock
moderator
by rosemarybillington
Hi all at Planet Four. 14th May 2014. Dear Planet Four team. Oh dear, I think I should leave it to Dr. Chris Lintott Director of the Zooniverse Project to step in here, because otherwise this is going nowhere fast. Dr. Chris Lintott is not only the Director of the Zooniverse Project but also is a regular contributor writer to the 'Sky at Night' Magazine that I have earlier cited. I am sure he could go to the September 2012 issue re look at eots_04 on the cover CD and give his verdict that I will surely accept. If he says yeah then we all come from Mars originally, if he says neah then it is time for a deep rethink, especially for me. Enough said. Yours respectfully, Rosemary.
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by
wassock
moderator
by p.titchin in response to rosemarybillington's
Rosemary, I'm sure we want to see this image. I f we are not to see it , then I must await to see if Dr Lintott comments. Don't give up on us, by nature I suspect many of us just like to explore ideas ourselves. It is what attracts us toP4, and these boards. No one's ideas are knocked, just explored and discussed openly. As Horace said, " Parturient montes, nascetur ridiculus mus" 😃 ~Pete
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wassock
moderator
by JellyMonster MODERATOR in response to rosemarybillington's comment
This is as far as I can get - http://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/issue/september-2012-0 How do you access the magazine contents or cover CD?
One other thing - I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'saving as a bitmap will double the resolution'? If an image is say 1024 x 960, and it is saved as a .BMP, it will still be 1024 x 960 on reopening.
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wassock
moderator
OK hope you can all still follow the above and that I've not missed any bits out.
Rosemary, I'm not sure how often Chris visits planet four, he posts as "zookeeper" but he's not usually active on the boards, so, unless you have an inside track on attracting his attention, we may have to wait a while.
I know how fustrating it can be when what is obvious to ones self doesn't leap off the page to anyone else. But our main problem is we've not seen just what you are looking at. Posting a pic here is not simple, and it's been a bit trial and error figuring out how. You need to put the image somewhere that can be accessed via the interweb and then provide a link to it. Most of us put images onto dropbox and then embed the image link using the tool above thetext window, the one which lookslike a polaroid photo. The tricky bit is that when you paste in the link that dropbox gives you, you have to replace the "www" bit with "dl" no idea why, it just works. If you can get us a look see at the actual images you are using then we can all be talking about the same thing.
If you need any help please message me off the boards and I'll try to sort something out. If all else fails could you just email me the image so I can put it up?
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