Let's all do the PINGO.....
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Paul_Johnson
Posted
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JellyMonster
But how does that evolve into an octagonal base?
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Paul_Johnson
I think they are different, but come under the theme 'Pingo's'
Maybe the ice / local geography is different-making them form differently? Pingo B seems to form a round tunnel into the dark material underneath, Jelly....I've expanded it and flipped it and it is quite a beauty! Have you seen any more like this one? I didn't spot this one til I checked out your profile page, it looks like a different kind of Pingo, eh?
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Paul_Johnson
Octagonal shapes seem to form naturally in ice on earth, so I guess it it just a natural feature of CO2 ice as well.....what do you think?
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Paul_Johnson
Not so sure about this one, now, could be related, a distant great uncle of a Pingo....
Posted
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JellyMonster
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Jelly....I've expanded it and flipped it and it is quite a beauty! Have you seen any more like this one? I didn't spot this one till I checked out your profile page, it looks like a different kind of Pingo, eh?
Paul, I'm not sure which image you are referring to?
Posted
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Paul_Johnson
The one that's second on here, not the chimney (that isn't a chimney!)
Pingo 'B' I calls it.....
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Paul,
'B' is a beauty.......I blew it up and looked into the bottom, and to me that darkness appears to have structure, a jagged, very angular kinda oblong shaped 'boulder' with a small 'cap' on the top. The deepest black of is on the southand east (lower and right) sides of the boulder, if I'm seeing this right, andand looks like the descending slope of the structure. In fact, towards the bright 'snowy' side, you can make out a dark reddish brown color which seems to fit with the overall color of the dust that escapes the channels. Do you see the same thing?
My recent "object viewing" has been a little woozy of late, as Jelly can tell ya', 😉 so I'm checking up on myself here...
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Paul_Johnson
Blimey AUncle, I've looked at it with your view and hadn't noticed the redish brown material....that's cool.......I had taken the very blackest part at the bottom to be a hole into the dark material underneath...but I can see how it could be interpretted as an object or boulder now.
I've not seen any further comments by experts on these for a while, I wonder if Pingo B has been seen by a scientist?-having 2 holes in the ice is definitely a trend and must be a naturally occuring, but seemingly rare, phenomena. I still don't fully buy the whole Pingo theory really, Pingo's on earth are huge, like islands, and occur where water if frozen, thaws out and is frozen over and over. Frost Heaving (Google it...!) is related but all of these phenomena rely on liquids freezing.
If it is a Pingo, or Martian version of a Pingo, it can only be formed from the freezing of sublimated CO2 gas freezing into solid form-I think, because that is the only chemical state change that occurs here-certainly nothing liquid. I've never read of such a thing-so, I don't think these are Pingos like Earth Pingo's, they are something completely different in my view! Also, they look mega fresh, don't they...? pingo's are old and grow slowly-these ones we are looking at here must occur each season, after the ice has formed? Pingo is a cool name, but these are not Pingo's-that said, I have no idea what they are.......You got any guesses AU?
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Pingo's on earth are huge, like islands, and occur where water if frozen, thaws out and is frozen over and over. Frost Heaving (Google it...!) is related but all of these phenomena rely on liquids freezing.
Funny you should bring this up, Paul. I think we've all pretty much bought the party line regarding channel formation, CO2 outgassing at vents, and carrying dust up and out of these vents....pretty much. But no one's ever seen the process up close, right?
I began wondering just how much pressure was being created under the icesheet, and what it would take to not only move an ever growing mass of dust as it sought a vent, but erode the crazy maze of channels we're seeing.
As we have no way of directly measuring any of these things, even the current model is only a hypothesis.That, plus a distinct lack of real knowledge of the subject matter, frees me to go down ridiculous alleys in search of the truth, so here it goes.
Put some dry ice chips in a glass tube and seal the top. Now roll the tube between the palms of your hands to warm the tube. (simulating the heating of the icesheet on mars). You can see the sublimation occuring, but...as the pressure from the sublimation increases, the CO2 begins to liquefy and this will continue as the sublimation proceeds as long as heating is taking place. Now pull the stopper/seal off the tube and what happens? The contents instantly turn to CO2 snow as the pressure drops inside the tube. Anyone can perform this experiment and get these results.
So where is all this going?...........Well, what happens in the test tube is the same thing we're told is happening on the surface of Mars. There are things we don't know of course, but can you imagine liquid CO2 running around under the ice? Probably carries more force and potential force than the gaseous form, and maybe it's more 'erosive' (is that even a word? 😉 too!...... Imagine that liquid being forced to a vent where it explodes upward into the thin Martian atmosphere, and expanding into the 'snow' or 'frost' that we see around the fans? Could that not be just as plausible as the current thought.
CAUTION IS NECESSARY HERE This is a freewheeling idea. I have no hard numbers as to just what temperatures or pressures are necessary to cause the liquification of the CO2, but if sublimation is occuring, it surely seems like the necessary heat is there. If it wasn't occuring, the conventional wisdom would fall out of bed too!....and I do know what I saw in the tube. It wasn't 'water', I know that!......but that's NOT proof either, and if a real scientist wandered into this room, and heard this babble, my head might be staring up at my knees before I could say another word 😉
So could liquid be at play in forming these Pingo's.... if that's what they are? Well , again as Paul says, on Earth Pingo's are mounds. What I see here are holes. Maybe they have a central 'boulder' lurking in all their shadows.
Maybe those rocks are slowly sinking because the density of the soil they sit on is being lessened by the injection of gaseous OR liquid CO2 ? Like soil on Earth gets less dense when 'wet'???I'm burnt to a crisp, so feel free to make swiss cheese out of this, while I re-boot my head!
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JellyMonster
Put some dry ice chips in a glass tube and seal the top.
What a waste of chips! 😃
AU, a very well thought out, detailed and plausible explanation.
Is this big enough for you? Note: I don't know whether you can make out the reddish brown (dare I say it) part octagonal shape at the bottom (might depend on your monitor set up)?
![pingo?] (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/e49e5f099e933e0abe25f7add04f343af817a062b23a9d66527710b7cca13c3b6g.jpg)
Posted
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AUricle
J Mon,
I don't know whether you can make out the reddish brown (dare I say it) part octagonal shape at the bottom
That's what caught my eye. Those angles at the 'corners'. However, the deeper I looked into it, I saw this:
.......I blew it up and looked into the bottom, and to me that darkness appears to have structure, a jagged, very angular kinda oblong shaped 'boulder' with a small 'cap' on the top. The deepest black of it is on the south and east (lower and right) sides of the boulder, if I'm seeing this right, and looks like the descending slope of the structure. In fact, towards the bright 'snowy' side, you can make out a dark reddish brown color which seems to fit with the overall color of the dust that escapes the channels.
You've turned the image 180, and I still see the same structure. I trust your eye more than I trust my own, so maybe the brownish thing is just the 'bottom' and not the top of an angular rock. I'm seeing the blackest area as being deeper down the hole than the brown stuff. Am I seeing this "wrong"....again? 😉
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JellyMonster
in response to AUricle's comment.
That's what caught my eye. Those angles at the 'corners'.
Yes, I read your earlier post but wasn't sure if you would be able to distinguish the reddish brown angular shape from the darker stuff (shadow?). It's a set up thing... Paint Shop Pro displayed it fine but now it looks like one huge shadow (on my monitor).
What you say may be correct (still trying to make sense of it 😃). I forgot to mention that I had inverted the image... glad someone spotted it.
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Paul_Johnson
Great image, how in the name of Yoda's left testicle did you repost an image you have amended back into here....? That's just showing off!
Angular shapes, yes, could be! Not sure though....
I can't help thinking the very darkest part of the pit is a further hole into the material, which we can see as a half circle.
My Father in Law thought this was a meteorite of some kind, but I don't see it like that- an impact with ice wouldn't look like this, I don't think. There would be a lot more cracking and devastation-something fast and hard hitting something brittle and shallow-it would be like throwing a handgrenade into a creme brulee. No, this seems to me to have happened over a period of time (how else could octagons form naturally) like what they do on earth-through freezing and time.....that's how (I think). Now, whether the hole was created from a sinking boulder or a rising column of hot gas/sublimate, that's the question. Or am I barking up the wrong path, again?
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JellyMonster
how in the name of Yoda's left testicle did you repost an image you have amended back into here....?
You've lost me there? You guys seem to come up with some good theories.
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Paul_Johnson
Sorry JM, just can't work out how you manipulate pictures then put them back onto the discussion board. I can put them into media player and work on them, but can't then post the amended pictures back here, like what you can.....that's all.
Sorry if I confused you with images of Yoda's genitalia !
The octagon is bothering me, it has to form naturally and I think, slowly, after all, the ice has to get organised doesn't it....? There must be a slow warmimg action, either from above (a boulder which sinks) or from below, maybe warm sublimate percolating upwards.
If warm sublimate perculates upwards over time, this would account for the lack of a fan, that is, material is not erupting up from below-no, because it is a much slower warmimg from underneath. Perhaps the ice in this area allows warm sublimate to percolate through it? In certain areas this effect is concentrated and the ice in that area slowly develops into an octagonal formation, weakens over time (through warming) then eventually, the whole shebang collapses downward. (Brain hurt now....) Bingo! It's a Pingo!
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Paul_Johnson
Then there's the boulder.....Falling Boulder Syndrome! A boulder rests on top of the ice (please see my early disbelief that any boulder can be on top of any ice-it can't get up there!) but, scientists say that there are boulders in and on ice (I think). Just to reiterate, I don't believe it. Anyway, sun comes up, heats boulder, boulder slowly sinks and subimates the ice surrounding it, allowing the ice to refreeze in an octagonal shape (which can and does happen on Earth) Sea ice does! Anway, the boulder travels down through the ice like a warm bullet in slow motion, carving a near perfect tube all the way down to the material below. Any material thrown to the side (which may be suggested by the pics) is due to pockets of sublimate being released upwards as the boulder sinks. No, I don't like the FBS, it just doesn't seem right, somehow.
Which means it is probably closer to the truth, as per most Martian Laws of physics, which state that the opposite of what you see and think is normally the truth...!
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Paul_Johnson
This looks weirdly Pingo-ish, have a look Jelly, work your magic dude!
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Paul and JellyMon,
Just for you because I know you're intrigued by the geometric shaping
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3z3y07ix00io2pq/Saturn_N__polar_hexagon_W00077335.jpg
Looks like it's happening all over the place! (OK, so it's 2 sides short.....)
Sorry JM, just can't work out how you manipulate pictures then put them back onto the discussion board.
That's a hoot Paul! I just "complained" to JM about that very issue on another thread! I've tried everything....(well obviously NOT everything)...to try posting up an image instead of just a link. Hey wait! Didn't you start this thread with 2 images? So you already know how it's done! Or is it the only images that work are images right from planetfour.org
....One last thing. I'm giving up on the "boulder" at the bottom of your original image, Paul. The brownish is just a shadow as I can see material from the embankment continuing to show in the darkness.......at least for the next 15 minutes 😉 Thanks for humoring me!
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JellyMonster
Great find Paul. I'll leave it to you and AU to work out what's going on. Image has been inverted remember.
![pingo?] (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/162e9242bbffbf355987efa21e5382a2c9f41d7e1c8ded28e3c3e681195c311a6g.jpg)
Posted
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JellyMonster
Paul - as AU says, you already know how to import images. If you work on one, save it to your hard drive, then upload it to Mediafire (or whatever you are using). It is the same procedure, no matter what picture you use.
Auricle - I suggest you open a Mediafire account first, then I could talk you through it... easy once you know 😄.
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Paul_Johnson
in response to AUricle's comment.
Yes all my images are direct from PlanetFour, AU, but I have just opened a mediafire account to try and get into Jedi Jelly territory of manipulation and reposting! Picture manipulation is a cool way of exploring, so that is where I'm at.
Jelly has done a good job on this (as ever!) and it raises more questions than it answers, which I likey!
I have been scouring the images, hundreds if not thousands, to find more Pingo related activity, but these 3 are all that I have seen-they are a rarity. I'm sstill earching for more images that are essentially Pingo-esque!
Cheers fellow citizen scientists, let me know if you see anything similar....
PJ
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Paul_Johnson
in response to AUricle's comment.
That's a great pic AU, it didn't half catch the scientists on the hop when it was first seen, I seem to remember. I think Voyager saw it first, maybe?
They must have been rubbing their beards and wondering what was going on there....!
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Paul_Johnson
The new pic, let's call it Pingo 'C' has definite structures at the bottom. A rectangle-ish feature and a circle-ish on top. The circle has an opening-am I making this up...? It looks, well, hideous really! Any thoughts....? (I have managed to blow it up and change colours etc, but am still working out how to expand it and post it on Mediafire)...I'll keep trying.....If Jelly could have a go at creating an image that shows these features, I would be very grateful, my liege.....
Posted
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Paul_Johnson
This is interesting, geometry or coincidence? It looks geometrical-ish....bottom right, below the fan....
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AUricle
in response to JellyMonster's comment.
First, an official Pingo tribute song (the first) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-uN22sI4JM....for your enjoyment, gentlemen!
Now onto the business at hand..................Krikey!......this is getting out of hand.
Paul, when I look at your image, I see veins and a conical hole with (do I dare say it?) a central boulder-ish thingy.
Jelly, your inverted image is channels, and a pile of snow with a slab of some kind sitting on top. Drivin' me bonkers 😉 Just for the sake of argument, aren't Mediafire and Dropbox the same thing?
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Paul,
Hold on just a minute! Is your image already inverted? Sun is coming in from upper left, it seems.
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Paul_Johnson
AU, that is one depressing song!
Try this......Now that's a bit more like it...!
Posted
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Kitharode
moderator
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGk4AKOwJbc (A lot more like it .. ?)
Posted
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AUricle
that is one depressing song!
How did I know you'd say something like that? 😉 Hey, we can't all be "The Wiggles" ya' know!......and I'm still waiting for the song in that claymation cartoon business.
I've got another take on the Pingo explanation.....sort of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqVNG1qMCCY&NR=1&feature=endscreen
Also got a really good look at the shadows and bottom of 'B', and I was flabbergasted. See what you think of this; https://www.dropbox.com/s/p41ckci3575zw0q/PingoBottom.JPG
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AUricle
in response to Kitharode's comment.
Hi Kith. Welcome to the Pingo party. Your vid was a bust for me. All I saw was this msg;
This video contains content from UMPG Publishing and EMI, one or more of whom have blocked it in your country on copyright grounds.Sorry about that.
....but hey, it beat the living tar out of that cartoon 😉
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Paul_Johnson
That Bernard Cribbins is the funniest thing I have seen in ages, look at his face at the start. What a great vid, Kith. Brilliant!
AU, a T Tex....! Wasn't expecting that....!
Great work, all.
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JellyMonster
Auricle, I thought the Google Earth video was interesting. The dinosaur was meant, yes?
Here's some inversions of Paul's Pingos. All I can see is faces, body bits and something from Quatermass and the pit!
![Pingo] (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/81638a1ccc0007221f8241442a6b0a2ba7e867115c69560e9c50a8c5a217b09b6g.jpg)
![Pingo4] (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/cbd030c4985b70ec66a63e763449c01d72ebd061a81c262adff34d247f72ed676g.jpg)
Posted
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AUricle
in response to JellyMonster's comment.
JM,...... Dinosaur? What dinosaur? ;-0
That is so unreal. The lower image looks like some stone or silver engraving gone berserk! I assume there is more work here than simply inverting.
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Paul_Johnson
See that Jelly, he's a legend he is!
They look horrendous! I'm so happy!
Any scientists around to review these bad boys......? Tchh. Never one around when you need one........tchh.
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Paul_Johnson
AU, the video from McMurdo is really interesting, but Google earth is terrible for making stuff look like other stuff. I don't think they are tanks at all, they look possibly like mobile drilling platforms, anyway......great vid, my good man. I think it also goes to show, if we can't tell what soemthing is on Earth, what chance we got of recognising something weird on Mars.....!
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Kitharode
moderator
You guys got any estimates / ideas about the size of these pingos? What sort of depth are you 'seeing'?
Posted
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JellyMonster
in response to AUricle's comment.
The image is legit, apart from a rotation, enlargement (in steps of 10%) and colour/brightness edits.
Paul, you are right, the image is hideous!
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JellyMonster
Nothing to do with pingos but the stones are nicely arranged. If you're lucky, you might find even some body parts and innards 😄.
![Stones] (http://www.mediafire.com/conv/0ec8c279b53507b8a986bf88ce6f3f151c0ea5fb2de70918758acc0392fe29bf6g.jpg)
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
You know, I only put up that video because of the opening frame showing that hole in the snow, and the title.
I was just going for a cheap laugh. I'm kind of surprised and pleased that you both found it "interesting." (did you remember to put the star around it?) 😉Posted
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Paul_Johnson
in response to Kitharode's comment.
Hello Kith, my friend! My guess on Pingo depth-about 1-2 metres (the full depth of the ice.....) and about 10-20 metres across?
Anyone got a different guess?
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
Paul,
I reasoned that the depth would be about 2m = 1m for the ice-sheet, and 1m channel depth (assuming this happens in a channel).......maybe a tad more if there is a central boulder sinking into the grust 😉
Tough call on the width. A normal frame is 800 to 2000 metres wide, depending on which resolution was used for the image. I think they said the images could resolve 0.25m per pixel or 0.50m per pixel at the lesser 'zoom'.
If I had to guess I'd say your probably real close.Posted
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Paul_Johnson
Are the pics really that wide AU-I always thought they were about 200m-ish. When the project started evryone thought they were looking at mountain ranges, but a scientist came on and mentioned a couple of football fields, but as ever, I'm entirely capable of getting it wrong!
'Grust.' I had almost forgotten about the Grust! lol
Posted
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AUricle
Hey boys and girls. Riddle me this.
We believe the venting CO2 is refreezing upon contact with the atmosphere, causing snow or frost to form those blue fans.
When a vents gas pressure drops though, and/or there is no wind, why does this stuff not build up like a volcanic cone around the rim of the vent?.......I mean we see a lot of vents, but does anyone have an image with "snow-cones" in it?
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Paul_Johnson
I wonder if cones would be really hard to spot, especially if same coloured material is falling around the same area. But I think, in theory, that in non windy conditions a cone should form. Why wouldn't it. I also wonder if as the pressure weakens below the ice the material wouldn''t block the hole, because any crack would have hot sublimate and material squeezing through, surely ice and material would accrete (build up by deposition) in that crack.
I suppose the question is AU....where the domes at? I've seen lots of boulders. My opinions on boulders are well known-I have always believed they form because of the gas release, not cause it, contraversial I know, just don't believe boulders are rolling around and poking up like they do-billions of years of erosion, especially the fierce katabatic winds in this region would have weathered them away (that's what all the dust is!). I reckon the domes you are looking for are possibly the ice boulders we see. A postion I have maintained from the start-and probably wildly innacurate, but look at the pics, most fans have boulders, all similar sizes and shapes-they just look too similar to be random rocks! You can have 50 boulders on a pic-they're all the same!
I'll keep looking out for cones, you'll be the first to know if I see one dude!
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I got that 800-2000m figure from a blog response that Anya gave me regarding the yardangs. However, that depends on which image Anya was referring to, so you may be right yet!
I was trying to estimate the length and distance betreen each yardang. Somewhere I seem to remember Meg(?) saying the full resolution HiRise images get sub-divided or quartered for use here. That would take that 800m figure down to 200m which is right where you've estimated. It's amazing how little we really know here isn't it? (I do know for certain that some of the images we get are part of composite images, because when I blow them up, I can see the "seam" where they've matched up image features)
Posted
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Paul_Johnson
True AU, I learned most of the little I know on Wiki !I honestly believe that the scientists are guessing at lots of it though. Do they know for sure gas is formingg and causing fans. Are these Pingoss-no! They look like mini Pingos but Pingos need water-and there aint no liquid water here!
Much of what we see is not fully proven-I suppose that what makes it so exciting-imagine finding something new or at least vaguely interesting-on Mars. That is quite cool in my book. I really enjoy these discussions, and I am sure that sooner or later we will stumble on something interesting to the scientists-take these Pingo's-are any scientists interested in them-not from what I can see!Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I also wonder if as the pressure weakens below the ice the material wouldn''t block the hole, because any crack would have hot sublimate and material squeezing through, surely ice and material would accrete (build up by deposition) in that crack.
Yes, entirely plausible if either of us are even close. I think we're joined at the head on this one 😉
That opening and closing implies a freeze-thaw cycle. Isn't such a mechanism the thing that produces the geometric ice here on Earth? Maybe thats why we see these shapes in the images? I actually see them alot under high 'zoom' percentages. More hexagons and pentagons though than those octo's.
IF the ice is what forms the boulders, that still does not answer the lack of material around the rim of the hole.You're right about the fan/boulder ratio too. However, with a boulder in the middle, more ejecta would be forced to the outer rims of the vent, no?
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Paul_Johnson
I can't think its like freeze thaw on earth, because here is no liquid state, which earthly Pingos need. This is CO2 ice evaporating into gas-then deposting as ice once more in the -190 degree temps. I wish a scientist would say that yes, they have done lots of experiments here on earth and yes CO2 ice behaves exactly like we see here on Mars. Yes it causes channels in materail, when heated under a CO2 ice sheet. Hmmm, that would be useful! Yes CO2 ice cracks near boulders and fans erupt, we have recreated this....I'll bet they haven't. Yes ice boulders sink through ice when the sun warms them up-again, have they tried this theory?
I reckon the ice boulders do affect the way in which material is deposited, because they are at the very opening and obstruct any eruption. This could even be responsible for the V shape patterns we see, and not the wind at all! I'm going over old ground with this, I sort of know I'm probably wrong, but I like to think about these things and think of patterns, work out theories and try and make a positive contribution!
So many questions-so few scientists around. However, ask a bone question or make out like you have seen a Martian Face (or in case of a Pingo, its ass...) -kazam, there they are!
Come on scientists, read thiis junk and let us know if we are doing anything useful or interesting......!
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
..... imagine finding something new or at least vaguely interesting-on Mars. That is quite cool in my book. I really enjoy these discussions, and I am sure that sooner or later we will stumble on something interesting to the scientists-take these Pingo's-are any scientists interested in them-not from what I can see!
Haha! Trying to bait the scientists into this one, eh? 😉
Those are some awesome thoughts and sentiments, Paul. I'm sure many others feel exactly the same. I know I do! Actually coming up with something that furthers human understanding of what Mars is about, woulld be unspeakably cool. I would die a happy man just to be a small part of a group that accomplished that end.
I really enjoy these discussions...
Then keep talkin', friend! I remember watching an Astronomy related show a while back about a group of quantum-physicists getting together one weekend with a quantity of wine, and coming up with the 'string-theory' of the universe. Too bad we can't do the same, but this ain't bad!
Posted
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AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
This could even be responsible for the V shape patterns we see, and not the wind at all! I'm going over old ground with this, I sort of know I'm probably wrong, but I like to think about these things and think of patterns, work out theories and try and make a positive contribution!
I've wondered the very same thing about the fan shape, particularily that the frost always seem to flank the dust, like the way water sprays from a garden hose if you put your thumb over the end.
Posted
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AUricle
Come on scientists, read thiis junk and let us know if we are doing anything useful or interesting......!
On the other hand, maybe they have and they're either sitting around laughing their butt's off, or they're getting P.O'd and saying " would you guys just STFU and get back to marking fans and blotches"!!
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Paul_Johnson
Yes, sorry AU, I do like to bait the scientists, they are lovely people but not around enough in here-too busy doing their real jobs, no doubt!
I wonder if anything we have ever said or done has any meaning or contribution? I feel sometimes that perhaps all us amateurs should probably just crack on and mark the fans and blotches (of which, I have done several-thousand....) which is why we are here. The few of us that take a wider interest, beyond the buffoons who see faces and messages in the ice, seem to be largely ignored. I guess budgets are tight in science, too few scientists working on too many projects, no doubt. I also think, apart from the website being set up by a gorilla with tourettes, no scientists want to stray from the fan/blotch study-that is why we have been given these valuable images to look at-we should, perhaps, just get on with doing our bit. Thats a fan, thats a blotch, thats a fan etc etc. Perhaps our questions and musings annoy them, because we are amateurs and don't really have a scoobies what we are on about. If that is the case I wish they would tell us, well, me really, to poke off and find something better to do,. So my question to the scientists is-should I poke off? It's an interesting scientific question. Should the amateur community stick to the fans and blotches, or, having become bored with that, poke off and stop talking about things they know nothing about? Are we actually distracting the real job at hand-fan/blotch demarcation.
Just wondering AU!
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Paul_Johnson
Wow, I was a bit spicy last night, uh?
I'll check my medication!
www.passionate.about.pingos.com
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Right, I have a mediafire account. Do I save pictures in any particular format?
How do I get my pictures from mediafire onto this place-anyone (Yoohoo, Mr Jelly....!)
An idiots guide, if you please!
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
PJ,
LOL....you were ON FIRE last night, buddy!
Hey Jelly sent me this PM yesterday. I think its what you're looking for. Or you could do what is described here on page 3;
http://talk.planetfour.org/#/boards/BPF0000002/discussions/DPF0000aywOK here is Jelly's PM;
Mediafire1 Try this... first register with http://www.mediafire.com 2 Make up a new folder and name it Mars (or whatever you like). 3 Squash the page to say, half size and put it on the left. 4 Open up the location of the image (on your hard drive) and make it fit on the right hand side. 5 Drag the file into the folder 6 Once done, enlarge the Mediafire page to fit the screen so you can see what you are doing. 7 click on 'share' 8 Ignore 'copy link', instead click on 'embed' 9 Highlight the 'direct link' information and copy it. Go back to http://talk.planetfour.org and click on the sixth icon at the top (you know this bit anyway). Just paste over what is already showing in the box. IMPORTANT - I think there should be a space in between the description 'close bracket' and the direct link 'open bracket' Good luck.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
AU, I'm off to make dinner then I'll be right on it!
Thanks very much.
PJ
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to AUricle's comment.
IMPORTANT - I think there should be a space in between the description 'close bracket' and the direct link 'open bracket'
Actually, I don't think it matters.
Paul, get yourself a Dropbox - easier that way.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Got me a drop box......oh yeah.
Now what?
What's the best way to save a picture onto my desktop then put it in the dropbox and then get it on here. Blimey it's complicated!
How did you work it out-it's a degree level course is this!
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I'll assume you run Windows, Paul.
Don't let all this scare ya'. Doing it is 100 times faster than trying to explain it by keyboard for me. From desktop to posting is only 30 sec. (or less) once you know how to do it!
- If you save image to 'Desktop' then right click on the image icon. That opens a menu.
- When you see "send to" move your cursor/pointer thing over it. That opens another menu. Look down the list for the "Dropbox" icon.
- Left Click the Dropbox icon. (that should send the file to your dropbox account folder)
- Go to the Dropbox website (I have a DB icon in my desktop tray that I right click on and the menu offers the option to "Launch DB website". If you have it too, just left click that option.(It'll take you to the site and open your folder) (or you may have to login first if you've set your account that way)
- Move your cursor over the image ID and left click to highlight it. Now, move the cursor over to the far right where you should see a 'chain link' icon. Left click on that icon (It'll say "share link") That will open a box titled "Share this image, with a URL address box in it)
- Look for the "Get Link" button and left click it. You'll see the image, and just above it a message (in a green box ) that says "Image copied to Clipboard". OK, now just go to the posting box at P4 (You can close all the DB windows if you want now)
- Hit (CTRL + 'G') together on your keyboard to open the correct box.
- Now hit (CTRL + V) to paste the image URL from the clipboard into the URL address window. Now comes the last step.
- Look at the URL address box. Where you see the "www" delete those letters and replace them with "dl". Then press the "OK" button and admire your work 😉
You can see it immediately magically appear if you have the "Show Preview" open as you compose your post.
Whew!Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Like this?---hee hee! Thanks dude, I'm loving it!
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
You sir, are a quick study 😃 Well done!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
The picture above reminds me of the 'sublimate percolating up and forming ice patterns-like pingos' theory. Something is happening here!
Thank for the help buddy.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Top tip! Don't delete your pics from the dropbox (just to keep it tidy.....!) Because they disappear from here too!
Oops!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Pingolicious, or whatever they are....
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
Tut tut Paul, you've forgotten to invert the thing.
Why is it mostly green by the way?
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Sorry Jelly, I have let the side down, again.......
I am now doing a handstand in the toilet...........(flushing....)
blulblbllbbuuublblbderblblullllglglgllbuub;bl......
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I am now doing a handstand in the toilet...........(flushing....)
Never tried it myself.
But you haven't answered my question 😦.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Just tooling around with the colours to try and reveal more characteristics.
Doesn't always work, JM!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
I notice some fans have grey features in them, possibly Pingo-esque, maybe vents, maybe piled up material (as previously discussed I think by Kith...?) Anyway, here's one.....
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Although some grey featuures are just ----weird!
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
Hi Paul. No, it wasn't me talked about 'piling up' material. Think that ties in with the 'stalagmite' theory doesn't it? Forget who brought that up - was it in the original Killer Fans thread?
I'm enjoying the images and discussions. Well done everybody.
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
I like the image on the top of page 7 and particularly that shade of green.
Posted
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by
AUricle
Paul, et al,....
If you followed this thread, you know that it is my belief that it is more likely that liquid CO2 instead of(or in conjunction with) gaseous CO2 is responsible for the channel building and vent system shaping things in the polar region of Mars, (*see the test tube experiment post at the bottom of page 1 of this thread).
Well I started digging around, and, Eureka! There is scientific support for just the mechanism I described, using the ice sheet as a 'pressure vessel' to create enough atmospheric pressure for the CO2 gas to liquefy.Here's a link to the scientific abstract ( It is only 1 paragragh in length ) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2000GL012496/abstract A more expansive article they wrote years earlier is here; http://www.unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htm
If this is truly happening, I think these channels and other features such as spiders would not require "hundreds of thousands" of years to form, because the liquid would work much quicker than gas eroding the terrain.
If you view the experiment with the dry ice in a sealed test tube, you know how explosively the liquid turns to CO2 frost/snow when you unseal the tube. This is the force that gouges the dust and transports it to the lower pressure atmosphere above the vent (If these scientists are right) It may also be responsible for some of the 'muddy' looking images we see.
Who knows, that crazy "chimney/pingo" image that Jelly Monster put up may be a moment after the liquid has broken into the open 'air'. Sort of a "big bang" eruption of CO2 snow. Or perhaps the pressure dropped enough for the vent to refreeze and what we see is the "stopper" plugging the vent?
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
Who knows, that crazy "chimney/pingo" image that Jelly Monster put up
It's Paul's 'space chimney', not mine!
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
in response to AUricle's comment.
Good work AUricle. Good evidence too. But I need to play devils advocate here...
From the articles; "...gullies seen on some martian cliffs and crater walls..." "... small channels on slopes...with most channels occurring at high latitudes near Mars' south pole." "...the most compelling fact is that gullies always start about 100 meters below the top of the cliff."
I see no cliffs .. !!? That is, I don't see cliffs in the images so far presented. My feeling is that these 'gullies' are not the same as the spider 'channels'/webs/pingos we are seeing here. Having said that, there are places where cliffs may be found; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MarsTopoMap-PIA02031_modest.jpg
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Let me think about that AU........you're on a roll buddy! Definitely agree that if there is liquid, then that changes the landscape of what we are thinking about, literally!
Jelly, if I am to be remembered for my part in the infamous 'Paul's Space Chimney' saga, then so be it. Oh the shame! lol
Kith, I just finished an essay and my brain won't take in what you are saying, it hurts too much, ouchy!
Posted
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by
AUricle
No matter how I orient that "Paul's Space Chimney" photo, that white area inside the octogan always looks to be rising up.
The immediate surrounding surface I can see as collapsing inward and sinking, but not the round 'column'.Is anyone else having the same 'problem'??I say problem because it affects the interpretation of what is occuring there. Yet I have no trouble seeing the 'hole' in the big image on page1 of this thread. So while these two things may be related, even 'identical' so to speak, they sure don't look alike!
This is what I see.....(and I realize it's NOT the same thing 😉)
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to Kitharode's comment.
Kith,
I need to play devils advocate here...
Play away, sir. All ideas need to be tested.
My interpretation of your interpretation, as it relates to the scientists interpretation of what they observed is this: (remind me to NEVER EVER use 3 "interpretations" in a sentence again 😉
At the cliff face, there is no ice sheet to pressurize the CO2 into liquid. However, the hundred meters of 'overburden' above the gully breakout point is sufficient to produce the necessary pressure. Now add the solar heating that would occur especially along the cliff face, and I can easily see this area as a 'venting' zone. I'm just applying the same principle to a flat surface that has the ice sheet working as the pressure vessel.
What we get as a result of the ice sheet, is surface channels...flatland gullies if you will, as opposed to crater walls and cliffs, which end up with the type of erosion gullies we see on mountain sides here on Earth. Is this in any way helpful?.....or did I misint..uh....understand your question?
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to AUricle's comment.
The immediate surrounding surface I can see as collapsing inward and sinking, but not the round 'column'.Is anyone else having the same 'problem'??
Yes, I am, whichever way I turn it. I think we need someone to build a 3D model of it.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
I have built one in my lounge, from mud and rocks. The wife is going crazy....no, she's just going!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Here's a nice pic, some strange doings here! And never a scientist to help or comment! See all my Pingo's at The Pingo Place in my collections. I'm giving up on them soon!. Scientists are NOT ALLOWED in there, it's a private Pingo viewing area for private citizen scientists !!!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
That pic is at http://www.planetfour.org/subjects/standard/50e7412a5e2ed2124000321f.jpg if any pic jedi wants a closer look (eh Jelly?)
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
in response to AUricle's comment.
So your interpretation of the interpretation I interp ... oh, you know what I mean 😉
Flatland gullies - yes I get it now. You're not suggesting we need a cliff, just the icesheet to provide the pressure vessel. That clears that up for me.
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I swear I almost fell down laughing when I saw that, Paul.
I have built one in my lounge, from mud and rocks....
I totallly forgot the movie aspect of that image, so that hit me like a ton of bricks. Priceless, man!
Maybe you should have started this thread on the BUG REPORT board! 😉
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to JellyMonster's comment.
*we need someone to build a 3D model of it. *
HaHa....Don't tempt me, Dave. The place will end up lookin' like Paul's lounge!
See what you think of the "Chimney" image I tweaked with PhotoZoom Pro, then moved it to Irfanview. I have an opinion, but I'd like to see what you and others think of it compared to the original. It's not inverted. No color tweaking, but contrast/bright, upped the "pixels per inch/cm".... and a little gamma. Took it up to 317% in Irfan...notice the watermark left by Zoom Pro.
Zoom Pro also installed a few 'presents' on my PC. It's because it's the free 'demo' version I'm sure. New default homepage called "searchya" (I hope not....) and pop up ads. I'll deal with that stuff later, I just wish the downloader would have notified me of the 'add-ons' or given me a choice to accept them. CNet is usually very good and reliable site for software. Despite that, thanks for the tip Dave.
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to AUricle's comment.
Oops........forgot the image. Here it is. Take it to Irfanview to zoom it
and the original
Posted
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by
AUricle
More extreme.....something called "AltaLux" effect on Irfanview. Put this in Irfanview and run it up to 384% or until the 'ice' really starts to look like ice.....you'll see what I mean.
If you look East and West from the vent, you'll see that this hole is right in line with the snow covered surface feature. It's as if I'm looking down into an excavation in a street, and seeing some ways beneath the street an open section of sewer or water pipe. Notice the octogon is not "sitting flat" on the bottom(?) of the hole, but seems to follow the angle of the western slope. I may be crazy here, but the black circle looks to be the pipes opening, and zoomed in it seems to be 'smoking' with dark patches drifting 'up' to the north (where the dark deposit is.
Dave can there be this much additional detail in the pix we're being given, but without the tools to actually bring it out?..... OR, have I just really ruined a good photo 😉
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to Paul Johnson's comment.
I think you have overdone it a bit with the contrast but hey, who am I?
Notice the octogon is not "sitting flat" on the bottom(?) of the hole
I thought that as well. I'm going to compare all the images we have of this anomaly, later this evening.
I think I got my demo version of PhotoZoom Pro' from their home site. I don't remember any 'extras' being bundled with it... sorry to hear that. It might be better to uninstall it and start afresh. Here is their home site... http://www.benvista.com/photozoompro By the way, rather than save the image, just press the 'PrtScrn' key on your keyboard to make a snapshot. This will get rid of any unsightly water marks.
Paul, I can't really improve on your photo, unless you want me to blow it up?
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Jelly...? What with......Semtex?
I should have made it green!
Yes, AU, there does appear to be dark tuff coming up on the north side, and depositing itself, like a regurgitated kebab onto the cold Martian pavement.
Good work with the pic, buddy.
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Into the spider.....
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to JellyMonster's comment.
just press the 'PrtScrn' key on your keyboard to make a snapshot
JM, would you mind explaining that operation. I've never been able to make the 'PrtScrn' key do a damn thing.Wasted space 😉. Is it a single keystroke? Or 2 keys simultaneously? When you do that, what happens? Where does the image go? Can you then bring it here and paste it in somehow? Inquiring minds want to know!
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to AUricle's comment.
Is it a single keystroke? Or 2 keys simultaneously? When you do that, what happens?
Yes, just press it once. Nothing visually will happen but the whole screen will be copied onto the clipboard. This means you can paste it into an image editing program using 'paste' or by pressing 'Ctrl' + 'V' together. As far as I know, importing images on here can only be done using the 'image' icon and pasting in a link to it.
Posted
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by
michaelaye
scientist
in response to AUricle's comment.
Very interesting paper you found, Auricle. Be aware though, this is brand-new stuff, published last December, and to my knowledge the first one claiming that liquid CO2 would be possible in the available parameter space on Mars. Be assured that we will study this paper very well in the next few weeks.
A couple of points upfront: We don't think that the situations of gullies and the CO2 gas vents and their fans are very comparable. First: This paper's claim requires the pressure of 100 m of material to get the thermal parameters to the point where liquid CO2 can exist. As we have spiders being created on very flat ground without any cliffs nearby we would not understand where these deep underground CO2 fluid aquifers could be hidden. Second: The thermal conductivity of the soil on Mars is roughly understand and I don't believe that the few polar sun hours (high inclination!) will be able to heat the ground enough so that the heat actually could reach anything 100 m deep inside the ground. It's just not very easy to transport heat through sand, which you will notice digging a bit into the sand on a hot day at the beach: It only takes something like 10 cm to reach very much cooler sand layers.
So I don't think it's fair to claim that you are applying the 'same principles' with applying this, nevertheless very interesting, new results from this paper.
Taa for the link anyways!Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to michaelaye's comment.
Michael,
First of all thank you for replying to several of my queries.
Let me try to clarify something. I don't think the temperature is being affected 100m below the surface, just at the cliff face, which depending on orientation to the sun, may receive more high angle sunlight than the flat ground on any given day. I'm not really concerning myself with the mechanism at the cliffs. I'm more concerned with OUR channels.
What I'm wondering is just how much pressure the ice-sheet can hold back? As the sublimation occurs, and gas pressure builds, could the pressure reach the liquifaction point for the CO2, thereby giving us a liquid or slurry flowing in the channels to the vents where it then violently turns to CO2 snow/frost, carrying the dust/pebbles with it into the thin Martian atmosphere?
Please fogive my ignorance, as I am not a scientist, so I'm trying to figure out if liquid CO2 would cause more erosion, possibly faster, than a gas would.
I'm not using that paper as my guide. I discovered it after I proposed the liquid 'possibility' on Page 1 of this thread, and I left plenty "caveat emptors" as I developed my idea. The first being that, as a non-scientist, with little actual knowledge of Mars, I was "free" to think utterly ridiculous thoughts, unconstrained by "here's what we think we know. 😉 ...and I'm having a great time.
That one of your team is even giving me the time of day, (and NOT calling me a lunatic), is amazing to me!
Thanks again, Michael!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
I think you are a lunatic AU!
....and I didn't need to be a scientist to have worked it out, neither....😉
PJ.
Posted
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Hey Johnson, leave AU alone.....
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Oh yeah.....?
Posted
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Yeah.......
Posted
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by
AUricle
in response to The Pingo Kid's comment.
Oh, thank you, Kid....................... Save me from the bully, Johnson!
P.S. Watch it Johnson! I've got scientific "street cred" now,.... so ya better mind yer P's and Q's, or I might just have the lot of you banished. Then you'll get NO images. except through ME!...and you'll have to pay dearly for 'em, at that!
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Please don't set your scientists on me AU, I'll be good, sir!
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
Are Pingo Kid and Paul Johnson the same person?
Posted
-
lol Jelly....
Like much of Mars, my old friend, some questions are enigmas shrouded in the sublimated mists of the evaporating ether.....
Who knows, who can tell?
No one will ever know the true identitiy......of The Pingo Kid..!!!!
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
in response to The Pingo Kid's comment.
No one will ever know the true identitiy......of The Pingo Kid..!!!!
That may well be true. But what we do know is that PJ and the Pingo Kid are never online at the same time..!!!!
Posted
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Ah, Mr Kitharode, you are a wise man, but does not a camel that drinks at midnight see his own reflection?
Here's a hideous feature for you to ponder on.....
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to The Pingo Kid's comment.
Here's a hideous feature for you to ponder on....
That feature is hideous 😃! Can you supply the original image that it came from?
Posted
-
Jelly, my liege......
Posted
-
I know there is a stone face on Mars, I would hate to ponder what feature this looks like.....
Perhaps this is exactly opposite the stone face....?
Posted
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by
AUricle
exactly opposite the stone face....?
PK. Did you notice the crack down the middle?............................................of this image?
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
The Great Crevice of Mars?
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
Who am I? Hang on......
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
The Great Crevice of Mars...?
(ahem)
Posted
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by
AUricle
The Great Crevice
More like "The Great Crev-asse".......don't you think? 😉
Ain't language grand?
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
in response to The Pingo Kid's comment.
Thanks PK... is it a Pingo in the making?
![Hideous feature] (https://dl.dropbox.com/s/hoofesd8q6vg8ge/Pingo.jpg)
Posted
-
I don't know what this is, but I sure wouldn't want to see a big steaming brown fan come out of it.
No sir!
Posted
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More of the same, oh hum!
Posted
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It's a strange one, JM....
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
Looks like a sheriffs hat (on a massive scale) 😃.
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
... another sighting?
![my sighting] (https://dl.dropbox.com/s/wq79hjo6s6p0a3y/E-50e742865e2ed21240003e8e.jpg)
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
I'm back!
I can see the pics again.....and have started to classify, in a classy way which defies classification!
How come everyone is a moderator? Have the lunatics taken over the asylum? 😃
PJ
PS.....
(Don't tell The Pingo Kid)......
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
Yayyyyy!! We missed you.
We've done the 'lunatics and asylum' story somewhere and I'm trying to find it for you. Well funny, well weird, well informative, well what more d'ya want?
(Insert Arnie voice here) "Ayuul bee baaaaaccck".
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
Lunatics and Asylums: http://talk.planetfour.org/#/boards/BPF0000001/discussions/DPF0000cd3
Page 1: Normality.
Page 2: Insanity.
Page 3: Honesty and Humiliation.
Page 4: Understanding and 'Group Hugs'.
Brilliant read. Hope you'll give it a go...Kith.
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
And this followed closely behind; http://talk.planetfour.org/#/boards/BPF0000006/discussions/DPF0000ck3
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
Great to see you again PJ. I also heard somewhere that the 'Pingo Kid' is on his way too 😛.
Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
Assesssment of evidence for pingos on Mars http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0019103509000815
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
Brilliant find wassock. Well done. What a website - How did I ever miss this? Lots of HiRise stuff too. Cheers.
Posted
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by
JellyMonster
PJ's pingo is still the best we have (unless it is something else).
Posted
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by
Paul_Johnson
in response to wassock's comment.
Wow wassock, that is one Pingo-licious article.
I need to read it a few more times, but wow, thanks for finding and posting-it's made my day!
Cheers and many thanks for the warm welcome back by everyone.
PJ
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
*Warm? Did he just say warm? On Mars? Have a word wassock, he's been away too long. ** :-X ***
Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
Forget not that warm is a relative term which is dependant on your terms of reference. Thus when Mars warms up we get fans even though the brass monkeys will still be singing soprano
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
Hahaha. That's told me - And quite right too. 😉
If you suspended the brass monkey on a chain and 'donged' it, I'm not convinced it would sound soprano .. ?
Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
If it was coming towards you fast enough it would.
Does pressure/air density affect pitch Mr musician?
And if there were no spiders to hear it would it even go dong ?
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
The speed of sound might be appropriate?
If we're saying that an instrument/object at standard temp and pressure is producing an A (440hz), then a change of STP will produce a change in pitch because the instrument will be affected. Can't remember details exactly but our 'concert C' is higher than it was a few hundred years ago (for all sorts of reasons other than stp) and I think there's a standard C (or A) in France, as there is a standard metre rule. Strikes me then that you could have an A=440hz on Mars, but if you took your method of pitch production to Earth it'd be different.
Last ones tricky. How about 'yes', if yardangs have ears?
Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
in response to Kitharode's comment.
Was thinking Doppler with the first bit and the effect of breathing helium is where I started on the 2nd, did think the 3rd was something to-do with quatums but now I'm not so sure
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
in response to wassock's comment.
Doppler - of course, yes! That'll do it. ( Not as funny as speed of sound though 😉 )
Helium. I see what you're asking now. The difficulty I have in giving an answer is that musical pitch (as I 'see' it) is rather more ethereal than temperature, pressure, helium etc. Tightening a string, singing the 'Helium Blues', performing at great altitude will indeed change the sound/note, but my thinking is more in line with the ancient Greeks so I see musical pitch as being unaffected by all that. Music is what Music is. Everything else is just made up by humans. Just my take on it though.
I'm ok with quavers, but quatums is a new one on me....
Posted
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by
wassock
moderator
If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound if there is no one there to hear it ? All tied up with the ideas that the act of measuring something changes it, observing it makes "it" happen, cats in boxes and a guy called Heisenberg
Posted
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by
Kitharode
moderator
I normally try to avoid answering questions when I'm not sure of the answer, so I'll apply my uncertainty principle here and stick with music - or even spiders if they're not falling over and being chased by a cat in a box. (Although I'm guessing we'd never know about that) ? ** 😃 **
Posted
