Planet Four Talk

Science Fiction or Science Possible ?

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    I'll apologise in advance just in case this is a bit too science-fiction, but I've just got to get it off my chest – and out of my head. I thought you guys might help me squash it at the start or give a hmmm, interesting. It concerns the 'seed', 'trigger', 'spark', or whatever that get's these spiders started in the first place

    There's a lot of scientists who'd love to actually get to Mars and dig around a bit because there's a possibility, maybe even a probability that there's life up there. Titchy extremophile stuff, but life nonetheless. Let's allow for the moment that there is life there - loads of it. Let's imagine colonies of these tiny extremophiles dotted around in/under the surface of Mars.

    Here's the science-fiction bit. If such colonies of extremophiles were to exist, is it possible that as a colony they might produce heat, or 'usable' chemistry, or fracturing by pressure, or whatever, which in turn causes the 'spark that ignites the spider’? If that were possible (and with both feet firmly in Asimov territory) let's allow these colonies to exist just below the grust-forming layer (grust = gas and dust mixture). As their ecosystem was eroded, they would need to migrate from that area. A little way down the road (the spider leg) the cycle begins again. Given time, the legs grow.

    Maybe those colonies that flourish in Boulderland live under the boulders (better compacted grust, more favourable temperature, dah-de-dah) and that's why boulders and vents are a 'hot topic'. Elsewhere in the landscape these colonies might 'string out' into the familiar linear formations we've seen (lines, hexagons, etc) following underground 'ecosystem paths' just below the grust layer. Now is probably the time to end this post !!

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  • Paul_Johnson by Paul_Johnson

    ....and I think I'm right in saying that methane (an indicator of such things) does exist on Mars-and is part of the speculation that extremophiles are down there....Would extremophiles produce heat? Dunno! It must be a possibility....

    Could they survive in the Martian dust, beneath the ice? It can't be ruled, I guess. Could they survive at the interface between chemicals (like they do on earth), between the rock and the ice, or the gas and the rock......dunno!.....but I would love to find out!!!

    Great stuff, as ever Kith, I'm getting better eveyday now, and starting to catch up properly with all that has been said on this and other boards, well done.

    PJ

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Thanks Paul. Good input. (Glad to hear things ok with you). Hope to see you in the gasra club sometime.

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  • wassock by wassock moderator

    I'm thinking that the problem with your theory (of how fans start) might be - microbes "titchy", ice "1 metre thick

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Hardly a theory yet, but thanks wassock. I take your point and, as always, you make a good one.

    Microbes and such are titchy indeed, but if enough of them crammed into a small space might they not make a 'big lump'. Atoms make boulders and atoms are mega-titchy. (Perhaps not the best analogy but you get my drift I hope). I'm guessing that the 1m of ice you mention is the ice-layer overlaying the grust layer, but that's a seasonal thing (isn't it?) so the ebb and flow of the icesheet may allow the colonies to grow and 'compress'. I use compress rather than shrink/decrease because it has a more physical, potentially active, connotation.

    Obviously nothing is gonna get proved in this thread and anything I say has to be a 'make it up as you go along' argument, but I hope you'll continue to help me put this question to bed. (Or turn it into a theory perhaps?)

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Andrew C. Schuerger, a microbiologist at the University of Florida and the Space Life Sciences Lab at NASA's Kennedy Space Center has done work on one of Earth's toughest extremophiles and concludes that these 'titches' couldn't survive on Mars - it's the uv light that does for them.

    However, he was "Testing under Martian surface conditions...". Later in the article Schuerger says "Whether or not microbes will survive when we drill down to depth, that's a wide open question at this point". There you go - we're up and running!!

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  • wassock by wassock moderator

    The comment was only aimed at the microbes as a way of opening a vent bit of your post

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to wassock's comment.

    Understood. I'm leaving the 'opening the vent' routine to the current theory, gas build up at bottom of icelayer, boom, vent, etc., and aiming my question more at a 'why do vents burst here' target. I'm convinced (despite having no evidence) that landscape plays a part, perhaps even at the small-hollow little-dip level, and as I mused over possible subsurface movement/activity scenarios I found these extremophiles butting into my thoughts. Hence this thread.

    I notice you didn't say the question was a silly (insane?) question to ask, but perhaps you're just being kind. However, I've got myself intrigued here so I'm not gonna throw the question away just yet. Hope you'll keep up your probing observations as we go along.

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  • Ian_Mason by Ian_Mason

    It concerns the 'seed', 'trigger', 'spark', or whatever that get's
    these spiders started in the first place

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pothole ?

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Ian Mason's comment.

    Thanks Ian. Not quite sure I understand your point. Are you saying we should take care when driving on Mars (would that be on the left) or, more likely, that the surface of Mars with/without icecover might 'pothole' in some way similar to your wiki-link. Sorry for being a bit slow sometimes. Are you a 'chuck it away' or a 'hmm interesting' supporter? (Don't have to say if you don't want to - you know that).

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Oh yeh, this is good - this is very good. I've been digging around to get a few facts about extremophiles to see what sort of extremes they might endure, in the hope that one or two of them might act as cousins to my martian microbes. There's more to choose from than I thought! Now, cyanobacteria types (they 'eat' carbon) and psychrophiles (survive at -15 C or lower) looked promising so I thought my martian cousin might be a hybrid - gotta start somewhere!

    Then I bumped into this: A team of Hungarian scientists propose that the dark dune spots and channels (spiders) may be colonies of photosynthetic Martian microorganisms, which over-winter beneath the ice cap, and as the sunlight returns to the pole during early spring, light penetrates the ice, the microorganisms photosynthesise and heat their immediate surroundings. A pocket of liquid water, which would normally evaporate instantly in the thin Martian atmosphere, is trapped around them by the overlying ice. As this ice layer thins, the microorganisms show through grey. When it has completely melted, they rapidly desiccate and turn black surrounded by a grey aureole. The Hungarian scientists think that even a complex sublimation process is insufficient to explain the formation and evolution of the dark dune spots in space and time.

    A multinational European team suggests that if liquid water is present in the spiders' channels during their annual defrost cycle, the structures might provide a niche where certain microscopic life forms could have retreated and adapted while sheltered from UV solar radiation. British and German teams also consider the possibility that organic matter, microbes, or even simple plants might co-exist with these inorganic formations, especially if the mechanism includes liquid water and a geothermal energy source. They do point out however, and I have to agree with them, "that the majority of geological structures may be accounted for without invoking any 'organic life on Mars' hypothesis".

    Which of course translates to me as; If you've got any plausible hypotheses kicking around concerning martian microbes, don't chuck 'em in the bin just yet. If nothing else I've convinced myself that my original question is nearer 'science fact' than it is to 'science fiction. Not only that but my migration 'ecosystem paths' idea might be useful in giving me an 'out' if it appears that the microbes should be destroyed in the venting boom. Most microbes might perish when the 'big boom' goes off, but those who have been squeezed into a niche far enough away from the blast (massive population growth?) might well survive. These would form the nucleus of the next colony.

    Hmm, Interesting..?

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  • DannyU by DannyU

    If you were an extremophile living in these CO2 ice conditions the last thing you could afford to do would be to waste energy as any significant heat loss. Even after the ice lifts and it's a bit warmer (still very cold) your life would still be one of extreme low energy - virtually hibernation.

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    An excellent point DannyU. First major flaw exposed (there's gonna be a lot of that) and it certainly needs addressing. This being a 'make it up as I go along' idea nothing comes to mind as a reply, but it's on the to-do list (learn about heat production and loss, find plausible alternatives,..)

    If you know a bit about this subject I hope you'll throw a bit more into the arena. Even if it means me reading a long list of 'that's no good' / 'that won't work' objections, it's all gonna be useful here - to me at least....

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  • Ian_Mason by Ian_Mason in response to Kitharode's comment.

    lol 😄

    Yeah I could have been a bit more outspoken couldn't I!

    I think I am more chuck it away, & wonder if ice forces a pothole to appear in a prone area, & then this subsequently grows year on year as more ice forms & forces the gap wider & wider, & may be then forces crevises to open up & appear in the form of spiders legs perhaps?

    Talking of driving, do Mars rovers display tax discs? (If only for comedy value) hehehe

    😃

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  • DannyU by DannyU in response to Kitharode's comment.

    I don't know much about it... 😉

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  • DannyU by DannyU in response to Ian Mason's comment.

    no but I believe you need a valid driving licence

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    That's the spirit, well done lads. I'll have to think about tax discs for a minute. In the meantime.

    Ian, you say 'forces a pothole to appear in a prone area'. Might this area be more prone than its surroundings because a colony of microbes was 'blackening' the surface beneath the ice, thereby creating a hot-spot?

    DannyU is right I think, you will need a drivers licence. Not sure that tax disc is required, but parking charges are horrendous - currently running at about $85,000,000 (ish)! Over...

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    Have allways thought that if life ever existed on Mars then it will still be there in one form or another, the poles being a place of water and shelter beneath the ice sheet would be the ideal place, with extremophiles, colder just means slower, whether there is enough energy in the system to produce the geysers is something I wonder about, thinking that the blotches are the same temperature as its surroundings.
    A while back I saw a program about extremos and how they can survive if shielded from the UV by growing under translucent rocks like flint pebbles, perhaps the 1mtr of ice is enough for them to thrive.

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  • Ian_Mason by Ian_Mason in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Ian, you say 'forces a pothole to appear in a prone area'. Might this
    area be more prone than its surroundings because a colony of microbes
    was 'blackening' the surface beneath the ice, thereby creating a
    hot-spot?

    OMG!

    For a scientific research into Mars, this forum has everything! Sheep, space weevils, antique furniture, porn, & now racism, cha! 😦 (only kidding) lol 😃

    You could have a very valid point Kith, but I wonder if it more down to types of rock texture, & a bit like the difference between granite & sandstone, & what gives way.

    I wonder if there is any 'serpentine' up there? I have always wanted something carved from from that very unique rare rock.

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Wounded Knee's comment.

    Wounded Knee: "if life ever existed ... it will still be there". I can easily agree with that. The tenacity of lifeforms, even as we know them on Earth, to continue their existance is remarkable. Given a few million years or so to adapt and adjust, who knows what the end product might endure.

    My extremo colony as 'the energy that produces the geysers' is not a good idea. I think the standard theory of gas pressure bursting through the ice to vent is sound enough; the scientists know best sort of thing. But to me that still leaves open the question; why does it vent just there, not over here, over there? Obviously there's a number of good reasons to choose from, but it's not been fully nailed down yet so I'm gathering my thoughts (and yours) to see whether the extremos might just answer that question, or not. (I'm a heavy believer in the influence of landscape/topography and I combine this with the extremo colonies).

    One things for sure, I've learnt more about extremos in the last 24 hrs than I have in the last 24yrs !!

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Ian Mason's comment.

    Yo!! - Porn. (I didn't see that. Where was it). See previous post re rock texture etc.

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  • Ian_Mason by Ian_Mason in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Yo!! - Porn. (I didn't see that. Where was it). See previous post re
    rock texture etc.

    It is shocking & leaves nothing to the imagination, & can be found by clicking the link here, & subsequent links. 😃

    http://talk.planetfour.org/#/boards/BPF0000003/discussions/DPF00009d1

    I will have a read on rock texture now.😃

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Ian Mason's comment.

    Followed link above, then went to the martian surface panorama link - WOW. Is this the band around the southern pole that's the study here at P4. The project doesn't cover the pole area itself (I understand) and I heard the project "went down to 85 degrees" (latitude I guess). So I'm guessing the panorama covers, say, a 60 degree (ish) band around pole. What do you think?

    Not much there on rock texture, just that I'm aware and it's in my head - somewhere.

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  • DannyU by DannyU in response to Ian Mason's comment.

    I wonder if there is any 'serpentine' up there? I have always wanted something carved from from that very unique rare rock.

    Serpentine is a hydrous rock, I think you're more likely to find it here on Earth... and so much more accessible.

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to DannyU's comment.

    Nice one DannyU. Hydrous rock sounds interesting, I'll read up in a minute. "More likely to find it here on Earth" you say. So less likely on Mars (obviously). But not unlikely? (genuine question)

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  • DannyU by DannyU

    not impossible but one has to weigh the chances of the right conditions having existed at some time for the mineral to form along with the chances that the mineral wouldn't have broken down or become anhydrous over time particularly if exposed to the martian atmosphere

    now I couldn't put figures on that but I'm confident that comparative to Earth they're significantly reduced

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    If Life was not on Mars before, it is now, As everyone knows it doesnt matter how well you clean it, there is always something there, Panspermia may take millions of years in nature, but we have done it in decades, perhaps nature
    is going through its cycle of transferring life between planets, all Mars needs is a Bolide to get its plate techtonics going an goodbye monkey man, its time for a change...................remember, that life is the Universes way of observing itself.

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    ...and humans are the only species capable of monitoring their own extinction. Good input - and I pretty much agree with it all. (Perhaps something a little bigger than a bolide would be my only quibble) 😉

    Which, when I think about it, raises an interesting question. Is the atmosphere of Mars dense enough to produce a bolide? I'll have to look it up...

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    A Bolide is just a large meteorite, its like a slow moving meteorite ( if that makes sense), I had the good fortune of seeing one in cassiopeia back in 86, Mag -5 moving through the lower right side of the W. only about 10 degrees long though. ( fishermans tail, probably 5 deg 😃....)..........alright 3 deg but defeantly mag -4 ish

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    http://www.d.umn.edu/unirel/homepage/07/e-hanseng.pdf

    If you got a spare week to kill 😃

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator in response to Wounded Knee's comment.

    Thanks. I've got lot's of spare weeks so I'll give it a go. Actually looks interesting from what bit I've read...but probably not aimed at my query.

    I'm ok with bolides; meteoroid (in space), meteor (burns in atmosphere), meteorite (reaches surface) but I think I'm right in saying that meteor, and bolide, are 'visual terms'. Meteor is bright line, bolide is big bright line often with spiky bits at the front (if you get my drift). So we see them like that because of Earth's (relatively) dense atmosphere, which led me to my query - would we 'see' a bolide, or would it just be a big meteor?

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    I think the bolides that get the lithosphere moving are of the size that would hit the ground at 15Km/s with or without an atmosphere, the atmosphere would be the last warm 10 seconds of its life.

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Bit of a damp squid then, I reckon. Like an aurora; better off viewed on Earth. Might get a miniburn going at the last, as you suggest, which might not be a bad thing from a panspermia point of view, or not. Further down the rabbit hole we go, eh?

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    There is a question on why Mars plate techtonics stopped and thus span the carbon cycle out. Its like Mars ground to a halt 3 ish billion years ago.

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  • Wounded_Knee by Wounded_Knee

    When you think about it perhaps Earth is in the goldilocks zone of bolide impacts, every so often the Earth needs a bolide to recharge the techtonics, Venus being closer to the Sun has it as a orbital clearer an Jupiter is Mars orbital clearer, the Earth just has the right balance of strikes per Eons to keep the mantle rolling. In the time just after the late bombardment mars had a high enough strike rate to give it techtonics then they settled into the asteroid belt via sheparding with Jupiter, when this happened the carbon/silacate rock cycle stopped and mars died?

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