Planet Four Talk

So if we're all stardust......................

  • wassock by wassock moderator

    Where does all the hydrogen come from?

    We are star dust in that all of the heavier elements were made in a dying star. In general stars die and distribute their goodies when they run out of hydrogen go supanova and burst spreading their contents across the heavens to later coalesce into new star systems. But if most of that debris is by definition not hydrogen where does the required fuel come from for the new star? I'm assuming that there is not a lot of hydrogen just lying around in intersteller space as we can see the H emission lines from distant stars.

    Hope the summer goes well with you all

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    What a good question! I'll put it to my astrofriends when we next meet, but here's my 'top of the head' reply to be going on with.

    Stars don't form just anywhere in the universe. In simple terms they form in galaxies, with most of the universe being 'empty'. Even inside galaxies stars do not form everywhere, but confine themselves to star-forming regions. In our own Milky Way galaxy the star-forming regions are in the spiral arms. These regions are where immense clouds of hydrogen clump together and begin to contract due to gravity to form new stars (and perhaps solar systems).

    Our own solar system is made up, very roughly, of the Sun (99%) which is mainly hydrogen, Jupiter & Saturn (0.9%) which are primarily hydrogen, and everything else (0.1%). A lot of the 'everything else' is hydrogen. This means, in relative terms, that only a tiny amount of heavy elements are required to build a complex solar system like ours.

    So I'd say the answer to your question is that the hydrogen doesn't come from anywhere - It's already there. 😃

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Late PS: This is an informative page from nasa http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/science/know_l2/supernovae.html which answers the question 'Are we made of Stardust?'.

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  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Are we into cosmic parlour games? Where do the electrons and up-quarks and down -quarks come from? 2 up- quarks and 1 down-quark give us a proton. give that an electron and we have a hydrogen atom.===so as hydrogen is the vastly most common atom- why twice as many up- quarks as there are down-quarks and electrons? As the 'superstrings' vibrate, do these vibrating nodes (making up a proton and an electron) form a cosmic C-major. and 'C-major' is hydrogen! 😃 ~Pete

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  • angi60 by angi60

    Wassock - Good question This is the sort of stuff which fascinates me. Hope you survive the summer season!

    Kitharode - Good answer 😃 But I find it can get very complicated when you start to read the different theories about the Universe and wonder about things like dark matter!! The 'land of quantum physics' can be a weird place 😛

    Pete - I'd heard about quarks, but didn't know they could be 'up' or 'down'. I've just read that there are six types - up, down, strange, charm, top and bottom (though I wouldn't be surprised if more have been discovered since the book I have was published!) Whoever thinks of these names?!

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  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to wassock's comment.

    This isn't quite my expertise, I'm a planetary astronomer, but I can give a rough sketch of the current theory is.

    The original inventory of hydrogen is thought to come from the Big Bang. The energy converted to matter, and then as Kitharode said the universe further cooled with heavier clumps becoming the galaxy clusters, galaxies, and then further onto smaller sacles stars and planets we see today. We can detect this baby picture of the universe in what's known as the cosmic microwave background which is the image of the galaxy at the surface of last scattering at the epoch of recombination when the hydrogen first forms.

    The thought is that the hydrogen formed the quark-gluon plasma cooled and made electrons and proton. Eventually in what is called the epic of reionization, the universe was cool enough for electrons to get trapped around protons. Then were some nucleosynthesis to make some small quantity of the hydrogen isotopes (deuterium) and a little bit hellium and lithium.

    The James Webb Space Telescope will help probe this epic of reionization. You can find more about it here.

    Cheers,

    ~Meg

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  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to p.titchin's comment.

    A nice way of summing up string theory Pete. That's about as much as I've kept up with it.
    Cheers,
    ~Meg

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    My knowledge of cosmology is very limited. I keep up with the 'general news items' on the subject, but I don't really know enough to make sensible comment. (Yes, I know being sensible isn't one of my strong points anyway).

    To be honest, when it comes to cosmology I'm much happier with Hesiod's 'Theogeny' than I am with articles about quarks and dark matter. The origins of the Muses is far more interesting to me than the origins of the alleged Higgs Boson for example. ** 😃 **

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  • angi60 by angi60 in response to mschwamb's comment.

    Thanks for the excellent link Meg 😃

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  • angi60 by angi60 in response to Kitharode's comment.

    I'm sure my knowledge of cosmology is even more limited than yours Kitharode 😉 It's wondering how the Universe came into being that fascinates me - I'm afraid Quantum Physics is beyond me!! I'm not familiar with Hesiod's 'Theogeny' - sounds like another one for the reading list 😃

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  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Hope you are reading Hesiod in the original epic greek Kith! That might give google something to 'muse' on. 😃 ~Pete

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    Pete: I know the Greek alphabet well enough and I can read Greek to a certain extent (although my pronunciation is probably appalling) but, sadly, I don't understand what I'm reading! Aside from a collection of musical terms that I can understand, my Greek is virtually non-existant. English translations only for me I'm afraid. 😦

    Angi: Quantum physics is beyond most people, so no worries there. How the universe began depends, to a certain extent, on when and where you were born. The origin of the universe is different for an ancient Greek than it is for an ancient Egyptian, and different again for a 15th century European or a 20th century Aboriginal. The origins of my universe are probably different from yours.

    Hesiod's 'Theogeny' is quite short and easy to read. This is a nice online version: http://www.greekmythology.com/Books/Hesiod-Theogony/Theog__1-115_/theog__1-115_.html ENJOY 😉

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  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Sorry Kith, can't get the link to work. My Greek sounds the same as yours,but for continuing to check my NT Greek against bible translations over the years. I remember (aptly) that 'Memory' gave birth to the Muses, My quotes book says they were' Set upon song, and their spirits free from care' . I know that you, like me, love your music, and their mindset is is a gift we would surely desire.~Pete

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  • p.titchin by p.titchin

    I suspect that like many, I explore the other Zoo projects, but I have found no other sites where the discussion boards are used to the same extent, or in such a relaxed and enjoyable (and hopefully helpful way) as P4. Long may it continue, and ,come on all of you that don't put your views on the boards! It's easy, rewarding, and stimulating! Go for it!. ~Pete

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  • angi60 by angi60 in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Kitharode, thanks for the link, though I couldn't get it to work either, but I did find another source that gave an outline. I did actually know some of it from the depths of my early education I've realised, but I'll re-visit it in more depth now 😃 I hadn't thought that way about the theories of origins of the universe being different according to culture and time. It's interesting how there are many similarities in the various creation theories/myths though. Of course, even the many theories in 'modern science' are constantly evolving or being disproved, so we'll probably never have a definitive answer. I love to let my mind wonder about and wander around the universe 😃 Perhaps I'll come up with a new theory 😛

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  • angi60 by angi60 in response to p.titchin's comment.

    Pete, I couldn't agree more 😃 ~ Angi

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  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    How strange - the link doesn't work for me today either. Here's another one to try. http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/hesiod/theogony.htm

    I agree with Pete; Planet Four discussions are definately the best in the Zooniverse 😃

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  • angi60 by angi60 in response to Kitharode's comment.

    Thanks Kitharode, that link works. As it's just approaching midnight, I don't think I'll read it now - I need an alert brain!! Thanks for broadening my education 😉 ~ Angi

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  • KYX by KYX in response to p.titchin's comment.

    neutrons have 2 down quarks and 1 up quark so that evens it out

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  • p.titchin by p.titchin in response to KYX's comment.

    They sure do KYX, but hydrogen doesn' t need the neutron, so still seems to me lots of up quarks around, all makes for good humour on the chat board. Welcome aboard- the ride is great!~Pete.

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