Planet Four Talk

umm??

  • rowbumby by rowbumby

    What do you all think is going on here then ???

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster

    It is certainly quite different to much I've seen. I can't quite work it out.

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby

    Iv taken the image in to Irfanview and clicked auto adjust colors and this is what it done https://www.dropbox.com/s/nobpb4c9nhinbbd/ummm3.jpg?m

    Posted

  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to rowbumby's comment.

    Looks like lots of interconnected channels. Definitely different from the majority of the images shown so far.

    ~Meg

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby

    Just come across another image similar APF0000cxx done the same with this image also https://www.dropbox.com/s/m8xspdcqrqf719o/umm 4 co.jpg?m

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to mschwamb's comment.

    Interconnected channels,ok good theory and I know you are the scientist and will know more than I ever will but interconnected channels, Could I ask why you think this?? Sorry Meg, I dont mean to sound rude in any way 😃

    Posted

  • mschwamb by mschwamb scientist, translator in response to rowbumby's comment.

    Previously it has been seen with HiRISE images that some of the spider channels are interconnected - it's been nicknamed "lace" terrain. http://www.uahirise.org/PSP_002651_0930

    Cheers,

    ~Meg

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to mschwamb's comment.

    Oh yes, now that makes more sense to me now and ''lace'' terrain, I like its nickname and thank you Meg 😃

    Posted

  • jshoe by jshoe

    Rowbumby, mschwamb et al.: Really neat treatment of these images with your "lrfanview" program Rowbumby! How do you do that? Does it reside in the Zooniverse software? How difficult is it to use? I have been looking for such a program since I began counting fans a few weeks ago. Just making many of the pictures brighter would be a huge help, especially while trying to size the fans and blotches accurately; or even determine whether more than one 'event' has happened at the site. I may just be ignorant of something others know already, but I will greatly appreciate your help.

    From the great images you have presented here, It looks like the sheet of "CO2 ice" actually bridges over the spider channels, (how wide are the channels ??) rather than freezing down into them. I cannot think of a way for this to happen unless a third phase fills the channels while the CO2 ice is forming, Or has this happened all by the process of carving out spider channels under the surface after the initial formation of CO2 ice? The glassy sheet is spectacular, and creates a nearly perfect "palette" for recording where the dust drops back to the surface! Offhand, I cannot think of any other place where such a clean surface is produced on a short time scale, but lasts long enough to record its own destruction later in the year. Even the surface of a perfectly still frozen pond here on Earth tends to get more messed up as the winter progresses, rather then cleaning itself continually, unless there is a big thaw or deposition of enough rain to melt it, destroying any deposited images in the process.

    Does that fine, orange-peel, surface "texture" really exist? These processed images show it better than any other I've ever seen! It seems to be in many of the pictures, but is some of it due to the data collection and processing? I can imagine that it is really there, but do not want to assume so if it is not really present. It seems to have fine 'grooves' that are usually lining up from top to bottom, but here is most pronounced on the diagonal direction from lower left to upper right. It is neat that the texture disappears if you look too closely at it! Is the white fringe that collects where the ice sheet comes on to each brown patch actually like CO2 crystals deposited from gas, or is it just less transparent due to shapes at the edges?

    Does the outer surface of the CO2 ice sublime continually, sometimes re-depositing solid CO2 as the solar input varies (say due to passing clouds, dust storms, or other weather events)? This must be a delicate equilibrium! Is this surface texture a characteristic of sublimation rather than melting? Just how much does the temperature vary over what time periods?

    Can some of the released 'dust' be carried downwind after it has landed back on the surface, like the process of forming a sand dune? How much material builds up? - seems like there must be a lot if it has to account for the formation of relatively large channels (tons rather than pounds)?

    If you could aim a comment to me directly at jshoe on how you processed the images, I surely would appreciate it, (and I'd be most likely to get it next time I log in). Or is there even an easier way to lighten the dark images and I just have not found it? (I still have trouble getting around within the planet four discussion groups and am afraid that I might miss your reply, even while looking for it, maybe you can just direct me to some "directions". I think it would have helped me to avoid a huge mistake a few weeks ago. Won't be the last mistake, I'm sure, but I will waste less of everybody's time.)

    mschwamb: Great analysis of these features! I am sure that the name "lace terrain" implies a lot more about what is going on here than I can fully appreciate. Thank you for being so closely involved with people's comments; it helps us know that what we are doing is important. It also helps us see that science involves both obtaining data and interpreting it. In this regard, I ask once more if you can tell me what size some of these features are? I still have not found a "Scale" within these beautiful pictures, or how to find what time of the Martian "year" they were taken.

    Also, what are the sizes of the "dust" or rock particles that are coming out of the holes?

    How long does an eruption last and how high does it go?

    Would an eruption be more like a short burp, or small but extended like a CO2 fire extinguisher, than like Old Faithful, or Mount St. Helens?

    How strong is the wind?

    Do the particles behave more like they are bullets shot from an "air rifle" than lava bombs blown way up from a big Hawaiian volcano?

    Or should I be thinking of the event more like the tossing up of chalk dust from the hands of a gymnast or basketball's superstar, LeBron James, as part of his pre-game ritual, where some of the stuff sticks together and travels up in clumps that fall nearly straight back down even as some of it is carried sideways in a beautiful cloud by the faint breeze in a gymnasium? Can you thereby get both the blotch and the fan during one 'eruption'?

    Does this basalt sand behave more like fine dust, or like chunks of rock, or both? The scouring out of the spider channels must be done by something more fierce than chalk dust; but then, even liquid water can carve out channels in solid rock. Or is that actually only accomplished by the sandpaper effects of entrained particles, or by the ability of water to dissolve nearly anything under the right conditions?

    Meg, You have so much more background than I ever will with regard these extraterrestrial systems - it has been your passion for years and is just becoming one of mine. It is an honor to have the ability to converse with any of the science team! Thanks for your attention, but please let me know if I am asking too much!

    I thank you both, (and any others) for your thoughts and guidance while I look at these neat photos. I had better get back to analyzing images. Ain't science grand?!!! jshoe

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster in response to jshoe's comment.

    I use an old verison of Paintshop Pro for editing the images but there are many others out there and quite a few that are free like 'Irfanview'. It is just a case of changing the contrast/brightness settings. In PSP, I normally just play around with the histogram settings until an image looks right (much the same thing really, except that you see a graph).

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to jshoe's comment.

    Hi, jshoe's ,no the program I use does not reside in the Zooniverse software but you can download it,its free.
    This is the link if you wont to download http://www.irfanview.com/
    And yes its really easy to use, its a bit like paint but so much better in many way, I did'nt have to do alot with the image in "lrfanview" once i saved and sent the image to irfanview i clicked on ''image'' on top bar then scrolled down to ''auto adjust colors'' and that's what it done, that simple also I must say the zoom on this program is phenomenal on the images.If you download and need any help with it just let me know 😃
    Also did you wont me to answer any of the many questions you have left or are they all for poor Meg?? 😃

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster in response to rowbumby's comment.

    i clicked on ''image'' on top bar then scrolled down to ''auto adjust colors'' and that's what it done, that simple

    I tried what you had suggested using 'Irfanview' but it hardly had any effect on the image?

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to JellyMonster's comment.

    That is all I done in ''irfanview''...so from start to finish.....
    I came across this image (not like a image I had seen before) so brought it here to ask people what they thought.
    I right clicked the image and scrolled down to ''save picture as.'' so then it is saved on my pc, I went to the image in ;;my pictures' (same image as here still) right clicked on the image and scrolled down to ''open with'' in this case I clicked ''irfanview'' once the image opened up in irfanview i clicked on ''image'' on top bar then scrolled down to ''auto adjust colors'' and that's what it done......nothing more nothing less

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster

    See if you can do it again.

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to JellyMonster's comment.

    Yes I just did it again and got the same results

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle

    Row and JellyMon
    I duplicated those same results. Then took it to PhotoZoom Pro and tried to get rid of some of the 'noise' that seemed to be all over the image. Here is the result:
    By the way, rowbumby, once you have a dropbox link, and paste it in the image box here, just take out the "www" in the image and replace it with "dl" and it'll open up like this:

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster in response to rowbumby's comment.

    I got it to work this time... how strange.

    Auricle... I can't see your image... so I've added my own version 😃. You can clearly see the large fans now, which I didn't even notice in the original shot. The image has not been rotated (shock horror)!

    ![Adjusted] (https://dl.dropbox.com/s/v9gijqp85i9e4xq/A-50e742d55e2ed21240004178.jpg)

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle

    Auricle... I can't see your image...

    OK Jelly, you have to explain that one better. Am I to believe that the image I'm staring at is somehow, magically appearing only on my computer? Is there some technical reason why you can't see it?

    Off topic, but did you see "Chocstar's" "diamond" shaped blotch/fans in the chat/objects board? Very cool!

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster in response to AUricle's comment.

    On my screen, it is a skinny rectangle with a white border with a tiny icon in the middle. We need others to check it out.

    Re Chocstar's 'diamond' shaped fans - yes very fanciful. Is it not two fans opposite one another (at different times obviously).

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle

    On my screen, it is a skinny rectangle with a white border with a tiny icon in the middle...

    How odd. I hope someone else will weigh in on this.

    Posted

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    AUricle. In your post, just before JM's image above, I see 'enter image description here' but it is not 'live' as a link.

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle

    Thanks Kith........and Jelly. I may have found the reason, but I don't understand why I can see it....

    Images you take to PhotoZoom Pro go in as .JPG files but come out as .TIF so maybe that explains it. Gotta see if I can fix that.

    OK It's "fixed". Let me know if you can see it now. (not here, back on page 2 😉

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle

    This reminds me of the terrain that show as dendritic spiders. If so, it's not so "rare". Here are 3 from my collection...all under different lighting and different image corrections. All are rotated 180.

    enter image description here

    I think they call this "slab-ice".As the slabs get smaller, they evolve to 'lace' eventually....maybe until they get so small they're individual boulders?? or something like the last image??

    enter image description here

    The image above is in grayscale..

    enter image description here

    Above, similar slabs without ice? summertime?

    Below......the "end-of-the-line"?? They call these formations "Penitentes"

    ![enter image description here]

    Here's another....

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle in response to AUricle's comment.

    Believe it or not........

    I finished that last post and went back to classifying images.........and looky here! First image I got was this!

    Penitentes? A HUGE boulder field. Broken pieces of rock everywhere. First image is natural, no rotation.

    enter image description here

    Second image is a blow up of just the lower corner. Maybe 15% of the whole image, no rotation but some light enhancement.

    enter image description here

    Posted

  • michaelaye by michaelaye scientist

    I am thankful for your links to Penitentes, was not aware of these and just downloaded the paper with the mathematical model for their creation, very interesting.
    About your thinking about slab ice and channels I wanted to warn you about a misconception you seem to have: The seasonal ice development is a short-timescale effect, the ice layer comes and goes each winter/spring seasons, while the channels are created by hundreds to thousands of years of erosion happening by the CO2 gas that flows compressed under the CO2 slab ice each season towards the current active rupture in the ice layer. So there is no transition within one season from one channel layout to another. We rather believe that certain parameters are different from location to location making either lace-like surface develop or more concentrated centered spiders. It will be a complicated interplay between what kind of CO2 ice is being created locally, meaning, how clean and how thick will it be, and how easy it is to erode the ground at this location. Repeated over many many years the slight difference in seasonal effects end up with different ground patterns.

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle in response to michaelaye's comment.

    The seasonal ice development is a short-timescale effect, the ice layer comes and goes each winter/spring seasons, while the channels are created by hundreds to thousands of years of erosion

    Understood Michael. I'm not suggesting that we go from slabs (or chain-link spiders) to lace or boulderfields in a season or two. Sorry if I left that impression. However, if it's liquid CO2 under pressure working as the erosive mechanism, wouldn't that speed up the process over say, gaseous CO2 erosion?
    http://www.unisci.com/stories/20012/0402013.htm

    Posted

  • michaelaye by michaelaye scientist

    I just saw that paper now in the other thread and understand now where you were coming from. It is of course valid to question the whole timescales in itself. See my answer there and be assured that we will keep very close attention to these brand new results. My first impression though is, that it suffers from breaking Occam's razor rule, because it seems easier to me to explain the gullies with sub-surface water ice that as a brine (salt solution) has a strongly lowered freezing point, than come up with some undetectable 100m underground CO2 aquifer. It just sounds so more far fetched, which is of course not a principle criticism, just a matter of probability. Einstein sounded pretty far fetched as well, and still he was right. 😉

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster in response to michaelaye's comment.

    Einstein sounded pretty far fetched as well, and still he was right.

    Albert Einstein is a legend.

    Auricle - yes I can see your first image now. For your blow ups, why don't you try the Lanczos algorithm in Irfanview.

    The rotated images you have uploaded on this page, look very good.

    Posted

  • Kitharode by Kitharode moderator

    AUricle - I see your image too (page 2)

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle in response to JellyMonster's comment.

    Thanks for the feedback, Jelly and Kith. Glad they're visible now.

    Albert Einstein is a legend.

    ....so by extension, does that make me a legend too?......or just far-fetched? 😉

    Jelly, thx for the Lanczos tip......is there a specific reason you mention this? Something in my images that needs fixing? ( Don't worry, I won't be offended by criticism ) You can use Lanczos in Zoom Pro if you wish, too

    Posted

  • JellyMonster by JellyMonster

    Something in my images that needs fixing?

    AUricle, I don't like the watermarks, that's all really.

    Posted

  • rowbumby by rowbumby in response to JellyMonster's comment.

    Glade you got it to work this time :- ) AUricle's thank you for the tip i will try it next time 😃

    Posted

  • AUricle by AUricle in response to rowbumby's comment.

    rowbumby,

    One caution on the "dl" Dropbox image pasting. If you remove an image from your Dropbox folder, that you've posted here, it will disappear from here too.

    Posted